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 Post subject: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 07:40 
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serious thread.
I am embarrassed to admit I know little about the history of the conflict and what is happening today. is anyone knowledgable about this? from what I can gather both the jewish of Israel and the muslims of gaza lay claim to the territory known as the gaza strip and have been fighting over it for all time. what is hamas? what is Palestine? help me not be so ignorant.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 08:04 
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Found this summary which explains the beginning well...

Following the defeat of the Jewish Kingdom of Judea in about the year 70 by the Romans, the region was renamed "Palaestina" (after the Philistines of the Bible) by the conquerers in order to embarrass the Jews they had just defeated. Following the Roman victory, Jews were expelled from the region to many areas including Europe and what was then Babylon. This region (note: "region," not, "country") is what became known as the British Mandate of Palestine following World War 1 and the collapse of the Ottoman Empire; it included what is now Israel, Jordan, Syria, and the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
During the 1800's Jews began moving back to the region (although there remained a small Jewish population throughout the region despite the Roman victory), as a result of an increased frequency in pogroms in Russia and Europe. Still more Jews moved back during WWII. Then, following the failure of the UN to partition part of the Palestine region into a Jewish State and an Arab State (because of the Arab's rejection of the plan), Jews declared statehood under the law which allowed for self determination in territories previously controlled by the Ottoman Empire, thus, Israel was born.


And some additional details...

The Palestine area was home to both Jews and Arabs. In 1947-48 there was a civil war between the two factions there. Egypt, Syria, Iran, and Jordon (I think) invaded the area to drive out the Jews. Israel fought back for the Jews and won, driving the others back further than they progressed. I'm the process they claimed these parts of the Palestine area as their own. These are the areas Palestine currently fights over.

The Arabs started a war to take over the land for themselves. In the process they lost and Israel ended up taking over some land. Now the Arabs are whining about it.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 08:31 
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The whole area went to hell in a handbasket the moment the mighty hand of the Roman Empire was lifted.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 08:56 
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A very quick and 5,000 ft. view of the situation is this:

The Palestinian Parliament put Hamas in power. Hamas is a radical Islamic Resistance movement group. Hamas is hiding in buildings with innocent men, women and children and is lobbing RPG's over the boarder (Gaza Strip) into Israel at buildings filled with innocent people. Israel's defense system is taking some of these RPG's down. Israel is then striking back with air strikes, however, they are also killing innocent people because Hamas hides among them, so that is creating an uproar.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 10:38 
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Fair summary.

I'd say it's probably accurate to say Hamas is extremely radical as both a political and militia force (we'd label them terrorists) even within the Muslim world in that area and can't even manage to co-exist peacefully with the PLO who aren't exactly best of friends with Israel.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 10:54 
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Blzbba wrote:
The whole area went to hell in a handbasket the moment the mighty hand of the Roman Empire was lifted.


X2. They have been fighting for control ever since. Also Hamas is un able to get along with Hamas. Its a fractured terrorist organization which mirrors the days of the IRA. Much of Hamas operates independently under the name Hamas.

Its why they can't negotiate with Hamas.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 11:55 
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elven wrote:
serious thread.
I am embarrassed to admit I know little about the history of the conflict and what is happening today. is anyone knowledgable about this? from what I can gather both the jewish of Israel and the muslims of gaza lay claim to the territory known as the gaza strip and have been fighting over it for all time. what is hamas? what is Palestine? help me not be so ignorant.


Long story short:

That region of Land (from the Egyptian border through Syria) has been a Super Highway for all of the regional's super powers throughout history (Egyptians, Persian, Syrian, Assyrians, Ottomans, Romans, Greeks etc.). The population has always shifted.

Jerusalem also has a very special meaning for the 3 area religions (Jewish, Muslims, Christians).

In a nutshell, when the Jewish State was created after WWII, the Muslims weren't too happy and decided to invade them (from all sides) to wipe out the new county and lost. 3 wars have been fought.
Israel is the size of NJ with a similar shape. Israel has been trying to create a buffer zone to head off any future attack; which is likely if you follow what some Muslim leaders have called for (Iran, Iraq when Saddam was in power, Syria etc.) and most nations in that area still haven't recognized their right to exist. When Egypt had a leader (Sadat) who signed a peace treaty with Israel, he was assassinated.

The West Bank, Golan Heights, Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza strip are all area's of land that Israel had kept at some point as a buffer zone (or has given back).

The "trouble" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank are the continuation of those wars but on a limited scale since a major invasion hasn't worked. Israel looks to those areas as needed protection and the area Muslims see that area as a great PR area to strike at Israel, hoping to get the world to stop supporting Israel by providing them with the money and arms needed to protect themselves.

If there was a regional peace (Muslims accepting the right of Israel to exist), then there wouldn't be a need for buffer zones.

Gaza is just a pawn of the regional superpowers (as the area has always been).


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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 12:48 
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goingmadd wrote:
elven wrote:
serious thread.
I am embarrassed to admit I know little about the history of the conflict and what is happening today. is anyone knowledgable about this? from what I can gather both the jewish of Israel and the muslims of gaza lay claim to the territory known as the gaza strip and have been fighting over it for all time. what is hamas? what is Palestine? help me not be so ignorant.


Long story short:

That region of Land (from the Egyptian border through Syria) has been a Super Highway for all of the regional's super powers throughout history (Egyptians, Persian, Syrian, Assyrians, Ottomans, Romans, Greeks etc.). The population has always shifted.

Jerusalem also has a very special meaning for the 3 area religions (Jewish, Muslims, Christians).

In a nutshell, when the Jewish State was created after WWII, the Muslims weren't too happy and decided to invade them (from all sides) to wipe out the new county and lost. 3 wars have been fought.
Israel is the size of NJ with a similar shape. Israel has been trying to create a buffer zone to head off any future attack; which is likely if you follow what some Muslim leaders have called for (Iran, Iraq when Saddam was in power, Syria etc.) and most nations in that area still haven't recognized their right to exist. When Egypt had a leader (Sadat) who signed a peace treaty with Israel, he was assassinated.

The West Bank, Golan Heights, Sinai Peninsula and the Gaza strip are all area's of land that Israel had kept at some point as a buffer zone (or has given back).

The "trouble" in the Gaza Strip and West Bank are the continuation of those wars but on a limited scale since a major invasion hasn't worked. Israel looks to those areas as needed protection and the area Muslims see that area as a great PR area to strike at Israel, hoping to get the world to stop supporting Israel by providing them with the money and arms needed to protect themselves.

If there was a regional peace (Muslims accepting the right of Israel to exist), then there wouldn't be a need for buffer zones.

Gaza is just a pawn of the regional superpowers (as the area has always been).


good post. thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 13:27 
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Where my understanding comes from:

This from wiki -
Quote:
Jerusalem... located on a plateau in the Judean Mountains between the Mediterranean and the Dead Sea, is one of the oldest cities in the world. It is considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Israelis and Palestinians both claim Jerusalem as their capital, as Israel maintains its primary governmental institutions there and the State of Palestine ultimately foresees it as its seat of power; however, neither claim is widely recognized internationally.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 14:31 
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Quote:
It is considered holy to the three major Abrahamic religions—Judaism, Christianity and Islam


Absolutely. Not that being there "first" matters I guess but Judaism being "there" obviously predates Christianity and the Muslim religion as well which is the youngest of the 3 at around 800 AD even though some of the prophets/saints of Judaism and Christianity dating back before Christ (BC) have a similar importance in the Muslim religion.

The somewhat ironic thing is that at one time circa late in the First Crusade period around 1099, the Jews and Muslims who inhabited Jerusalem jointly at the time co-existing, banded together, albeit unsuccessfully to fight the European Crusaders (e.g Christians) ultimate successful invasion of the "Holy Land" and specifically the taking of Jerusalem.

I've given up trying to understand why religion has been the basis for people killing each other in an effort to promote their specific religion for the past 3-4 thousand years.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 16:42 
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Israel has expanded its borders since WWII, mostly due to wars started by bordering Islamic countries. Although, largely outnumbered the Israelis have always succeeded in pushing them back and then taking their land to create more of a buffer zone. To the winner go the spoils. Many in the Islamic world believe Israel should give those lands back. They won't and that creates a ton of friction.

Try and picture countries like GB, France and Mexico telling the US govmt they want their territories back..

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 16:59 
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The boy who cried wolf effect is in full bloom. Of biblical proportions we should pay some attention. Too late to go back now, but that Iraq conflict never has a moment of positive effects outside the main Hussein bathroom.

People just aren't paying attention. Shouldn't have to be this way though. Cheap clean energy and plentiful water should alleviate most of the issues.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 17:55 
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The way I see the crutch of the problem is the Israelis, as well the Jordanians, are hoarding land. and more importantly access to groundwater, at the expense of the Palestinian, who themselves should have just as much historical right to live in that region and draw water as anyone.

Just give them some damn land and a couple of the wells already, end the economic blockades, and quit treating them all like terrorists, then maybe things will turn around for the better.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 18:19 
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The BlueBeards wrote:
The way I see the crutch of the problem is the Israelis, as well the Jordanians, are hoarding land. and more importantly access to groundwater, at the expense of the Palestinian, who themselves should have just as much historical right to live in that region and draw water as anyone.

Just give them some damn land and a couple of the wells already, end the economic blockades, and quit treating them all like terrorists, then maybe things will turn around for the better.


do you jest?

Israel moved out of Gaza in the 1990's and left it in good condition with a decent infrastructure. Green houses, farms, homes.. Alot of what the Palistinians needed to get off to a good start. All that stuff was in shambles within a couple years. Government corruption ran the whole place down to what it is today. So, Israel should give them a little more land for a DO Over?

Edit: to clarify, the Israeli military left in the 90's

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Last edited by sctroyfan on Tue 07.15.2014, 18:45, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Israel/Gaza Conflict
PostPosted: Tue 07.15.2014, 18:39 
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I don't think you could possibly sum up the mideast in a single post on a fantasy football forum.

But if you did, you'd probably say that the area in question has been changing hands for pretty much all of recorded history, and it's as much a religious battle as a political, economic, or philosophical battle, and therefore it's unlikely it will be resolved any time soon. If ever.

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