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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 10:01 
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el capitan wrote:
When a team goes from a good player to a serviceable player, it sucks, I don't like it, so on and so forth. I don't believe that's the case here. I believe the Chiefs are going from a serviceable player to a player who needs to be replaced. Saving what? 3-4 million a year? It's not so much about Routt personally that gets me on this, it's the underlying message here - this isn't an attempt to get better, or to make room for youth, or because the hands were just tied. None of that applies here. They didn't want to overpay for Carr, so they found a cheaper alternative and will live with the diminished results. It's not about winning. And that pisses me off to no end.
I know it's CB, not QB, but this is like going from Matt Ryan to Alex Smith. Yeah, to some extent one can make justifications. But in the end you got worse to save a couple million a year and avoid overpaying Ryan.

One more thing. The more I think about it, the more I think they'll let Bowe walk. They already have a cheaper alternative on roster, potentially drafted to take his spot in Jon Baldwin. I mean, they've only got, according to some sources, ~ $20 mil to work with. Money's tight, gotta make tough decisions. Not signing Carr long term before this season was understandable, considering his situation. Not so with Bowe. They knew he'd command a good contract. I'm beginning to think they drafted Baldwin as a replacement, not as a complement. There will be those folks who try to justify that decision too.


I see a fan and one who loves his team. I dont mean that in a disrespectful way - im one myself - but i think if you can (not saying its possible as we all struggle) take a step back froms eeing a fan favorite likely leaving then you mighnt be too upset. Cincy fans were the same about Jonathan Joseph leaving and theyve done okay (again) without him :)

From an objective point of view, i dont see that big a downgrade from Routt. I actually think it could even work out better for the Chiefs. Im looking at both their past 2 yrs of production, the schemes, the personnel around them and the salaries.

Im for it 110% as improving the teams roster and salary cap. Just a quick question though as ive given plenty of info as to why its not a downgrade.

Q: Why do you think youre going to get diminished results? What are you basing that off of exactly? :-k

And there's no justification here and im sorry you think im justifying for a GM and franchise ive had a go at before :(

I dont agree with all their moves - like when i was trying to persuade you alst off-season that Cassel was heading for a fall after Weis left (tho w/Haley gone hes got more of a chance than id have given him this time last year!) - but im 100% behind this as a good move for the team. I DONT think youre worse off at the position.

Guess only time will tell the story though, like last year

FWIW, Baldwin wasnt brought in to compete for Bowe's spot - he hasnt got the attitude to compete for it. Hopefully TJ has shown him the error of his ways? He does however have the talent if his heads screwed on to be productive.

And i dont want to go too far OT here, but i also dont think its fair to say "Hey wait a minute why didnt we get Bowe all signed up already!". If you look around the league there are a number of franchises either in similar spots w/regard to franchising key players which shouldve been done a while ago OR// in worse situations (Like Wallace & the Steelers)

# Dont forget between the CBA, lack of off-season, arrangement for alot of FAs to run into 2012 by all 32 teams if theyd locked him up to a mega bucks contract only to find out that the market was softer with players like VJax, DJax, Colston, Meachem, Lloyd etc theFans would be berating them for over-paying ...
# If theyd signed him to a contract last year as well, then the same section of the fan base would also be berating them for Bowe's lack of effort and saying they should have waited to get him a contract.
# Also the same fans would probably be upset if he got overpaid based off of a record breaking year for him (15 TDs) rather than a year of more normal production.
# It takes TWO parties to come to a deal. If Bowe is - and has been asking for over 2011 - more than the team can afford, then you can slate the GM and FO all you like, its the player's greed thats getting in the way and despite the fact they may have just made a move that makes reaching a middle ground more likely (ie clearing potential cap drain of keeping TWO corners on big money) you're probably still going to blast them for it, right?

Bottom line is Bowe is after a Holmes type deal (which is $45million over 5yrs, according to Jim Trotter @SI), which is - ta-raaaaah! :party-smiley-050: - about the same $$'s as a franchise tag for a WR in 2012 ($9million) anyway :F So whats the problem with waiting one year to get a more "normal " read on his stats to go to the negotiating table with and buying a years worth of negotiating time while you're there? Sounds suspicioulsy like a decent FO move (unlike Cassel's contract)


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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 10:09 
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Bye bye Stanford. Enjoy watching Denarius run by you over and over next season. :lol:

We need to get rid of everyone who was on the Al Davis Scholarship Program, and Routt was on the list. He's not a bad cover guy but he takes stupid risks and gets a lot of dumb penalties. He's a less mouthy, slightly less talented Deangelo Hall.

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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 10:31 
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I don't think the two players are ~ the same. I think Carr is the better player, younger, with more upside. I think teams had a hard time choosing between Carr and Flowers when choosing who to target. I think that wasn't the case with Routt. I read the stats you've presented with interest, but I also take those kinds of stats with a huge grain of salt, knowing that they're inconsistent from year to year and have some underlying issues - which passes should be counted as targets, as opposed to being in a zone, etc. - which make them potentially unreliable. (To be fair, all stats have issues, and must have a ton of context included.) Yes, I'm a fan. I'm a fan who wants to see his team win. I can understand the consideration of saving ~$3 mil a year at any given position. (I'm basing that number on the chatter that Carr would get ~ $10mil/yr on the open market, which I'm skeptical of but will roll with.) Routt had the open market to himself and that open market netted him $3 million less, which suggests the market thinks he's clearly < Carr. So I'm not the only one who sees that kind of separation. I could be wrong, of course. But I'm pretty confident. Further, Routt is nearing the end of his physical and playing prime, while Carr is just entering his. That has to be considered as well.

I'm overplaying the Bowe contract a little. I can understand how it's possible to not have him re-signed before FA hits. I think it's a mistake, but I see it. I was saying that Bowe had established himself well before this past year, but the team had some concern with Carr - he'd only had one good year before this season and wanted to see him repeat it - and he did, arguably playing better. And I can understand the logic behind clearing room to sign Bowe. Based on the way they've handled their money in previous years, however, there is plenty of money to work with there. We can disagree with the amount of room they have, but it's clear that they have plenty of room. And I know they would be overpaying for Carr. Such is the market for starting caliber corners. The Chiefs think they can get by with a replacement player at corner and save ~$3 mil a year. I think they'll have corner as an area targeted for improvement in the next player movement cycle. Which means they'll end up paying more for it in the end. It's like buying a cheap hose vrs a good hose. Buy a cheap hose and you'll buy another before the season's out. Buy a good hose and it'll last for an awful long time.

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I dont agree with all their moves - like when i was trying to persuade you alst off-season that Cassel was heading for a fall after Weis left (tho w/Haley gone hes got more of a chance than id have given him this time last year!)


If you remember, I though Cassel was heading for a fall as well. I just didn't think it was because of Weis, but due to a hefty difference in schedule strength and lack of improvement around the roster.


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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 10:39 
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Oh, by the way, I didn't mean "justification" in a necessarily negative way. I'm meaning it as a means to explain the why of a given situation. I'm justifying my positions also.

And I don't think they brought Baldwin in to compete with Bowe. My fear is the brought him in as a replacement for Bowe.


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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 10:49 
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el capitan wrote:
I don't think the two players are ~ the same. I think Carr is the better player, younger, with more upside. I think teams had a hard time choosing between Carr and Flowers when choosing who to target. I think that wasn't the case with Routt. I read the stats you've presented with interest, but I also take those kinds of stats with a huge grain of salt, knowing that they're inconsistent from year to year and have some underlying issues - which passes should be counted as targets, as opposed to being in a zone, etc. - which make them potentially unreliable. (To be fair, all stats have issues, and must have a ton of context included.) Yes, I'm a fan. I'm a fan who wants to see his team win. I can understand the consideration of saving ~$3 mil a year at any given position. (I'm basing that number on the chatter that Carr would get ~ $10mil/yr on the open market, which I'm skeptical of but will roll with.) Routt had the open market to himself and that open market netted him $3 million less, which suggests the market thinks he's clearly < Carr. So I'm not the only one who sees that kind of separation. I could be wrong, of course. But I'm pretty confident. Further, Routt is nearing the end of his physical and playing prime, while Carr is just entering his. That has to be considered as well.

I'm overplaying the Bowe contract a little. I can understand how it's possible to not have him re-signed before FA hits. I think it's a mistake, but I see it. I was saying that Bowe had established himself well before this past year, but the team had some concern with Carr - he'd only had one good year before this season and wanted to see him repeat it - and he did, arguably playing better. And I can understand the logic behind clearing room to sign Bowe. Based on the way they've handled their money in previous years, however, there is plenty of money to work with there. We can disagree with the amount of room they have, but it's clear that they have plenty of room. And I know they would be overpaying for Carr. Such is the market for starting caliber corners. The Chiefs think they can get by with a replacement player at corner and save ~$3 mil a year. I think they'll have corner as an area targeted for improvement in the next player movement cycle. Which means they'll end up paying more for it in the end. It's like buying a cheap hose vrs a good hose. Buy a cheap hose and you'll buy another before the season's out. Buy a good hose and it'll last for an awful long time.

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I dont agree with all their moves - like when i was trying to persuade you alst off-season that Cassel was heading for a fall after Weis left (tho w/Haley gone hes got more of a chance than id have given him this time last year!)


If you remember, I though Cassel was heading for a fall as well. I just didn't think it was because of Weis, but due to a hefty difference in schedule strength and lack of improvement around the roster.


Id agree about upside - younger is generally better for building a team if the talent is there :thumbright:

In this case i think it is.

Dont forget that Routt was routinely picked on in 2010, but still held his own (noone throws at Nnamdi if they can avoid it, as he was with the Raiders in 2010 when Routt acquitted himself well in his 1st yr as starter).

I understand what you're saying about stats and in some cases its easier than others to decipher accuracy - but OAK play Man most of the time and when Nnamdi was there he always played the same half of the field. So its not too difficult to get a read there.

If he can hold up in a man coverage opposite Nnamdi, then i think he can hold up opposite Flowers (who i think is the better corner of between Carr & him) in a zonal or man system. Though im with Sj hes a much better fit in a zonal. Then again VERY few players can play man at a pro-level without getting caught out at least a few times. Number of corners out of the almost 100 in the league id say can do it to a level consistent enough to play it 70% of the time, i could count on one hand.

Either way, i'll bow out and leave this for others to chip in with their thoughts - but i have to say i really wouldnt be down on the move at all. I dont think its settling for mediocrity in order to prevent problems elsewhere - i actually think its a smart move.

And yeah, i just reread that Cassel thang :D Youre absolutely right, we did agree hed drop off a cliff - and im probably right in guessing wed still disagree about the why of it lol :D

Either way, i think it's going to work out for the Chiefs - hope it proves so, for you :thumbright:


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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 12:59 
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SJSwarm wrote:
Bye bye Stanford. Enjoy watching Denarius run by you over and over next season. :lol:

We need to get rid of everyone who was on the Al Davis Scholarship Program, and Routt was on the list. He's not a bad cover guy but he takes stupid risks and gets a lot of dumb penalties. He's a less mouthy, slightly less talented Deangelo Hall.


Nailed it

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PostPosted: Tue 02.21.2012, 17:58 
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jamcutpost wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
Losing teams spending $ on mediocre players just because you have it is a good way to continue to lose...especially when there are tons of other options available. Routt's very replaceable, at least a half dozen guys in this draft class are better than him, at least 2 or 3 of them immediately. And wave 2 and 3 of free agency will net players almost equal to Routt, only 300% cheaper. And just because they don't want to pay what Carr wants doesn't mean you have to spend that $ on CB. You can spend it on other positions too! No, really, you can!

Just dumb management...


Not a single rookie made the top 20 corners last year in yds allowed per pass or pass attempts per snap count. In fact most rookie corners get pummeled - its a massive leap, even for the best of them as its not just a case of being as athletic as the guy you're covering like it can be for WRs and CBs alot of the time in college.

Take Patrick Peterson for example?

5th most targeted CB in the league (113 targets) and allowed 67 completions. Now he could improve alot next year, or he could just end up just being a special teams ace. I think he improves, but either way when one of the best corners in a weak class produces like that, i think it must give pause for thought as just HOW effectively they could replace Carr with a rookie ...

I'd even wager $1,000 sand that we wont see a rookie in the top 10 this year either for passes allowed per snap. Theyll be targeted and they will more often than not struggle - and for good reason.

It IS however a relatively deep class for Corners, which have been the most drafted group over the past 3 classes anyway. So there will be plenty of scope to make it competitive in the secondary ... esp if Arenas can step up, which im not sure about atm. Elite returner, sure but im not sold he can play starting corner yet. Hes still young and more improtantly still learning though and last years CBA shenanigans wont have helped his development any. Bit like the FS, Lewis.

I wouldnt say the Chiefs havent made bad moves before (who hasnt) or made "dumb management" decisions, but this one isn't in that category for me. Routt's knock for me is he gets lazy. He has enough ability - he's shown it. He's in the same bracket for me as Carr - if he can stay focused for 4 quarters. Hes shown he can do it and his past two seasons have been his best in the league.

Top 20 Cornerbacks, Catch Percentage per Coverage Snaps

Receptions Allowed |Thrown At |Cover Snaps |Catch% per Cover Snap

1 Tramon Williams
GB 56 123 792 0.0575%
2 Brandon Carr
KC 51 111 700 0.0656%
3 Antonio Cromartie
NYJ 55 115 683 0.0700%
4 Darrelle Revis
NYJ 28 67 592 0.0706%
5 Ike Taylor
PIT 57 102 763 0.0732%
6 Stanford Routt
OAK 42 99 548 0.0774%
7 Brent Grimes
ATL 67 127 668 0.0790%
8 Charles Tillman
CHI 67 111 751 0.0804%
9 Brandon Flowers
KC 55 109 625 0.0807%
10 Tim Jennings
CHI 46 91 621 0.0814%

I dont see it as that big of a downgrade :dontknow: But as i said earlier theres a few folk out there that won't believe it no matter how much id try.

So aside from it representing no massive downgrade (and plugging a rook straight in, even if he's top tier would represent a massive downgrade) for me which is subjective, it also allows you to address the 4 major needs in KC this off-season with less than $20million in cap space.

1. NT
2. Bowe
3. Backup QB - Only Cassel & Stanzi rostered next yr
4. Backup TE - Moeaki's health is up and down. No quality behind him
5. FB/McClain - If Charles is going to be the main guy, hes going to need a semi decent guy to help him get outside or up the middle. There's no doubting his talent, just his durability. A good FB will help.

There are other things going on as well - like the re-signing of Belcher and Gilberry - but they just quite simply couldnt afford to keep Carr and just like Cincy fans last year (w/Jo-Jo vs L.Hall), i think you'll be surprised to see the defense wont fall off a cliff if Carr leaves and that the real problems lie elsewhere.

I think you're looking way too much at stats and not nearly enough about what's on the field.

On the field he's lazy, as you cited, and that won't be fixed by throwing more $ at him. He's also a penalty nightmare that makes dumb decisions.

In the end, he doesn't help you win games. Pay $ to players that help win games, scrap the bottom of the free agent barrell and the draft for everything else. Kirkpatrick and Mo Claiborne will be better players than Stanford by this time next year and eventually I'd bet on 3-4 of Heyward, Minnifield, Janoris, Trumaine Johnson, Leonard Johnson, and Dennard. Probably someone else I'm over looking too.

Any way you slice it this was a bad decision made by a team that will continue to be bad until the front office is flipped. Again.

Pioli sucks.

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PostPosted: Wed 02.22.2012, 02:46 
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OarChambo wrote:
I think you're looking way too much at stats and not nearly enough about what's on the field.

On the field he's lazy, as you cited, and that won't be fixed by throwing more $ at him. He's also a penalty nightmare that makes dumb decisions.

In the end, he doesn't help you win games. Pay $ to players that help win games, scrap the bottom of the free agent barrell and the draft for everything else. Kirkpatrick and Mo Claiborne will be better players than Stanford by this time next year and eventually I'd bet on 3-4 of Heyward, Minnifield, Janoris, Trumaine Johnson, Leonard Johnson, and Dennard. Probably someone else I'm over looking too.

Any way you slice it this was a bad decision made by a team that will continue to be bad until the front office is flipped. Again.

Pioli sucks.


Id agree that drafting a top tier corner would be the long term best route. But under the current circumstances, the Routt move makes sense now. Nothing at all to stop them still taking another top cover rookie in the draft, but he wont help much this year.

Id still disgaree about him being a penalty nightmare all of his own making & id disagree about focusing too much on stats :D Those were there primarily to try to allay any fears cap has about him. I think like Paris Lenon has had to - he's putting up with a lot of criticism about his ability which is largely more down to circumstances he cant control than things he can.

Bresnahan sucked big-time and the whole team (inc the def) lead the league in pens. Why? Cause he kept flipping them around and asking them to do things they hadnt done before all the way through the season.

The raiders play man coverage on the majority of snaps. Its their base. They are the only team i can think of that does it. It leads to a fair few pens in terms of pass interference, holding and illegal contact.

So the dumb decisions, wouldnt have looked nearly so bad on a team that splits it's coverage more evenly between zone and man as hed have had help over the top. The Penalties are there again because of the base set and a DC that ended up being so terrible there were campaigns to get him fired even before Al passed away.

If you put Huff in at corner in the same primarily man scheme, i think theyd wish they had Routt back - hes a worse man def than Routt - and hopefully another indicator that theyll go zone coverage where i think Huff will play well enough.

Bad DC, bad scheme for corners vs pens + a player that can get distracted = sub par production.

What makes me more optimistic than some seem to be is that despite ALL of the above ... AND the fact he got mercilessly picked on in 2010 (as noone in their right mind picks on Aso) he still graded out well in terms of coverage and passes allowed (6th in 2010 and top 20 in 2011).

Ive watched the blown coverages for TDs, ive also watched all the good plays as well - which in that scheme aint easy - and i come away more impressed than disappointed overall. Dont think the magnifying effect fo that insane contract he was handed (when the raiders were only competing against themselves really) helped him. Again, another reason why there are negative conotations with the player and again have nothing to do with his overall play or something he's causing.

I think its a good move for both teams. Looking fwds to seeing Van Dyke for OAK and -potentially - Huff move to corner, but only if they stop with the base man scheme.


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PostPosted: Thu 02.23.2012, 13:36 
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OarChambo wrote:
Pioli sucks.


He may suck, but it sounds like he was smart enough to structure the contract below:

Quote:
Chiefs CB Stanford Routt's three-year contract is actually worth $18 million in base value, but has a $10 million option bonus in the second season.
It's a one-year, $6 million deal that will expand to three seasons only if Routt plays lights out in 2012. Routt received no signing bonus, and the Chiefs could sever ties completely, free of bonus acceleration, by cutting him before 2013 option comes due. There is no commitment to the 2013-2014 money until the option is exercised. The Chiefs will decide whether to do that next March.


So $6M for a starting CB that you anticipate will play better in your defensive scheme. Looks like Chiefs fans shouldn't be completely pissed at this signing as much as they were yesterday after this news.

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PostPosted: Fri 02.24.2012, 01:46 
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endzoneview wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
Pioli sucks.


He may suck, but it sounds like he was smart enough to structure the contract below:

Quote:
Chiefs CB Stanford Routt's three-year contract is actually worth $18 million in base value, but has a $10 million option bonus in the second season.
It's a one-year, $6 million deal that will expand to three seasons only if Routt plays lights out in 2012. Routt received no signing bonus, and the Chiefs could sever ties completely, free of bonus acceleration, by cutting him before 2013 option comes due. There is no commitment to the 2013-2014 money until the option is exercised. The Chiefs will decide whether to do that next March.


So $6M for a starting CB that you anticipate will play better in your defensive scheme. Looks like Chiefs fans shouldn't be completely pissed at this signing as much as they were yesterday after this news.


Thanks for the info, EZ. I'm only pissed if the Chiefs intend to replace Carr with Routt. If what Pioli was suggesting on the radio the other day - that Carr is still in the Chiefs' plans - is true, and Carr returns, then I just think this is an expensive 3rd corner.

Then I thought about it for a bit. It's possible that the Chiefs intend to franchise Carr, test drive Routt, and if Routt plays well then let Carr walk next year. In this scenario, perhaps they intend to re-sign Bowe to a long term contract, or as I fear let him walk now.


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PostPosted: Fri 02.24.2012, 19:01 
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Any chance we could change the name in the thread to Jacques Reeves? The Routt move i like, but that one ... eesh.

On a brighter note - you guys won the coin flip vs SEA, youre picking 11th (to their 12th) =D>


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PostPosted: Fri 02.24.2012, 21:51 
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jamcutpost wrote:
Any chance we could change the name in the thread to Jacques Reeves? The Routt move i like, but that one ... eesh.

On a brighter note - you guys won the coin flip vs SEA, youre picking 11th (to their 12th) =D>


I vaguely remember Reeves. If I remember right he played for the Texans a couple years back - I don't remember if he started or not. I do remember that the Texans had a horrible defense.

I don't know the details on this one but I'd be surprised if it was for anything significant. Camp body.


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PostPosted: Fri 02.24.2012, 22:47 
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el capitan wrote:
jamcutpost wrote:
Any chance we could change the name in the thread to Jacques Reeves? The Routt move i like, but that one ... eesh.

On a brighter note - you guys won the coin flip vs SEA, youre picking 11th (to their 12th) =D>


I vaguely remember Reeves. If I remember right he played for the Texans a couple years back - I don't remember if he started or not. I do remember that the Texans had a horrible defense.

I don't know the details on this one but I'd be surprised if it was for anything significant. Camp body.


Yep, camp body.

And we never spoke his name again

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PostPosted: Sat 02.25.2012, 10:52 
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jamcutpost wrote:
Any chance we could change the name in the thread to Jacques Reeves? The Routt move i like, but that one ... eesh.

On a brighter note - you guys won the coin flip vs SEA, youre picking 11th (to their 12th) =D>


ahh one of Parcells 7th rounders.....he was JAG.....Routt's much better than Reeves ever was


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