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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 12:34 
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jamcutpost wrote:
Instead of looking at Cys team ...

Why dont we all look at our own teams and see what implementing the rule as Cy interprets it would mean. Who knows maybe it would make the league better :dontknow:

I have a bit of a conundruma s it goes at WR (rather than Cys RB sticky patch)

Edinburgh WR roster wrote:
WR (Hard limit 7, current count: 11 total)

Doss (TS eligible)
Hankerson (TS eligible/ IR eligible)
Moore (TS eligible)
Durham (TS eligible/ IR eligible)
S.Rice (IR "Eligible?")
Meachem
Sanzenbacher
Norwood
Evans
Doucet (Trans)
Boldin (OOC)

I have 4 x non -WR on TS, so 3 spots available.


Quote:
Using Cys interpretation:

Instead of being really pushed to draft a WR this year, i can now leave Durham, Hankerson & Rice on IR (11 down to 8 ), il leave Doss on TS (8 down to 7). Boldin walks (7 to 6) and i now have a minimum of one spot for a WR in the draft

BUT// Hold your horses, gents we have the draft and auction :) !

FA auction - Win D.Jones (BUF, WR, IR)
Draft - R.Broyles (IR, PUP candidate)

I still have ONE free roster spot ... AND ive gained 2 WRs and my WR total is now 12: 6 on main. 5 on IR and 1 on TS.

ALMOST double the main squad limit ... and still room for a WW Wonder :thumbright:


That sound right to anyone that i can do that? ^^ Im fine with it if y'all are. In fact id "smurf a little party" as id be THRILLED as to say im needy and WRs underperformed for me all last year is like saying Africa could use a spot more fertile soil :party-smiley-050: :party-smiley-050:

Quote:
Using Oars interpretation:

Hankerson, Rice & Durham ALL count towards the limit (unless i move Durham/ Hank to TS, in which case i need to cut someones :F ) and i have no room to draft a WR unless i cut a WR in addition too. Forget having 12 players, itd be 7 after cuts and whatever i can squeeze onto TS. Period.

Everyone can forget me going WR in the draft at 2.02 or bidding on one of the many WR FAs in auction - id be out of the running. Unless i cut a couple of players :(


I know which one would definitely be a MASSIVE help to me. Im guessing Oar could use it to as he has as many players as we have on IR (5). Dingo has 6 so he could have some fun too with a little extra roster room.

Not sure my div rivals would be so happy ive just found more roster room & wont be forced into cutting anyone and can now bid on their trans tagged and out of contract WRs, though :-k



Dude, your bullpoop slippery slope arguments are pissing me off.

Being on IR alone does not mean they can be left on IR past the auction. My point is if they tore their ACL or had another SERIOUS injury so late in the season that it would be unusual for them to start the season on an active roster, they are eligible.


I don't know details about the players listed, but the only one I believe should be pup eligible is broyles. And i am fine with him being on IR, he will be on IR during the season.



So once again... On IR at end of last season == not automatically IR eligible
Likely to be on pup list == IR eligible, and as soon as they are active in training camp they have to be moved to active roster.

Stop the madness.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 12:41 
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Durham was given a six month time table in November. Healthy by the season.

Hankerson is ready to go by June 1, according to shanahan.

Jones had an outside chance of playing again last year, due to the ankle injury.


The only one not clearcut is Sidney rice, he is "hoping" to be ready by training camp.

I think having a chance at being ready by training camp means he is unlikely to begin the season on the pup list. But if you made the argument that he is eligible, I would be fine leaving him on IR until he is active in training camp, when you will have to cut someone to activate him.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:02 
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I am extremely opposed to any thought process that allows a player who ended the season on the IR to be ASSUMED to be on the IR at or around the FA draft and not have that player count towards the positional roster limits.

It's ridiculous that we are even contemplating guessing now on what a players NFL roster status is going to be come August.

As I previously said regardless of what the poorly written / impossible to get more than 2 people to agree on what they actually mean rules are, you are either on the IR or not and as of right now, there are no players on the IR.


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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:08 
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jesteva wrote:
I am extremely opposed to any thought process that allows a player who ended the season on the IR to be ASSUMED to be on the IR at or around the FA draft and not have that player count towards the positional roster limits.

It's ridiculous that we are even contemplating guessing now on what a players NFL roster status is going to be come August.

As I previously said regardless of what the poorly written / impossible to get more than 2 people to agree on what they actually mean rules are, you are either on the IR or not and as of right now, there are no players on the IR.



We aren't guessing now, we would be guessing a week after the fa auction. That means mid June at the earliest.

Also, once again, our IR is not the NFL IR. I don't think I need to say it again, and players do not have to be on the nfl ir to be IR eligible.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:11 
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Cyguy84 wrote:
So once again... On IR at end of last season == not automatically IR eligible
Likely to be on pup list == IR eligible, and as soon as they are active in training camp they have to be moved to active roster.

'Likely to be on PUP' will not work, way too much grey area there. Which is why James and I keep bringing up our own current situations and why I brought up Welker and Braylon. There is no way of even estimating the likelihood a player starts on PUP. Some serious injuries heal quickly, others take longer, others a lot longer, and some never recover. LaCharles Bentley was arguably the best young (27 y/o?) center in the league before blowing out his knee on the first snap of camp and never playing again. Who would have guesses that the day it happened? Besides, there are many more players each year that start camp on PUP and are activated in the first couple of weeks or later in August. Based off your wording these guys qualify too. But who qualifies? I think Gettis may start on PUP, so I'll keep him on IR. Morgan could too. I'd argue for Charles and Sid Rice for sure. Cassell and Schaub too. Oh, did you mean guys that will start week 1 on PUP? Ok, what's the appropriate wording? There's a chance Moreno could start the season on PUP? he might not be ready at the start of camp? they hope he's ready week 1? What if could's not used? what if possibly is used instead? what if instead of hope he's ready week 1 the writer says they think he could be ready? What if Moreno is cut? what if he COULD be cut BECAUSE he's hurt?!?! I doubt you get my point because I think you only read what you want to read, but hopefully others got it.

Anyway, if a majority want this changed, fine. If someone else does it, and it passes, we can execute it as of Jan 1 2013. If someone else doesn't, I'll do it in January (but I'm not going to draft up the actual verbage - someone else will have to do that), if it passes then it's effective Jan 1 2014.

Not surprisingly, my vote is no, regardless of the verbage. Any rule change of this sort would delute the auction pool significantly, which is why the roster maximum's were put in the first place. So if someone else does it there's my vote. And if 'likely to be on PUP' is passed I withdraw from being a commish because I am NOT taking the time and effort to determine what does and what does not qualify. Any sort of verbage will probably cause me to remove myself from the position because I see this opening a can of messy situations everywhere, but I'll keep an open mind if a more reasonable rule that's approved is simple, and only if it is simple.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:20 
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jesteva wrote:
It's ridiculous that we are even contemplating guessing now on what a players NFL roster status is going to be come August.

As I previously said regardless of what the poorly written / impossible to get more than 2 people to agree on what they actually mean rules are, you are either on the IR or not and as of right now, there are no players on the IR.

Ka-boom.

And, I assure you, the IR is not an issue once the season starts. If you're doubtful, out, or on IR you're eligible.

Bookmark this for later but I do have to talk with you about adding players in-season, there are a couple of work around's we do because of limitations of MFL. I want to make sure you know what to do when that time comes to make sure you get the same shot at players that everyone else does.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:21 
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I can see the point of it being messy.

That is why I like it to have stiff penalties to avoid bullpoop.

You can put players on IR in anticipation of pup list and if they are put on pup, you are fine. If not, they are cut. No questions asked or excuses.

Leaves the gray area during the auction, but clears it up before week 1 without giving the chance to move them onto active and cut someone else.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 13:31 
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Based on the verbage used I think you're drafting up a rule at the last minute that clearly benefits your team's current issue without thinking of the league's best interests, only your team's. Unless of course you agree that making it effective this year would be a mistake.

But, have at it if you wish, or don't and I will in January. If it passes either time it goes into effect for 2013. If it goes into effect now then I'm no longer a commish.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 14:08 
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OarChambo wrote:
Based on the verbage used I think you're drafting up a rule at the last minute that clearly benefits your team's current issue without thinking of the league's best interests, only your team's. Unless of course you agree that making it effective this year would be a mistake.

But, have at it if you wish, or don't and I will in January. If it passes either time it goes into effect for 2013. If it goes into effect now then I'm no longer a commish.



I wanted to get feedback on it.

I recognize now that there is a real issue in terms of who is definitely going to be on pup. I had been considering it a foregone conclusion.

I have no problems with you as commish, as long as you don't try to interpret rules that should be decided upon by the league. In this case, the rules were ambiguous regarding IR, but completely lacking regarding what you claimed them to be. If the auction were in august I don't see any reason for IR to not be allowed for players with season ending injuries during the offseason.

As the auction is in June or so, I agree that it makes it more difficult. But there are no rules forbidding it.

Jam kept making arguments that are not substantiated by the league or how we operate. I had to wade through the volume of arguments and show that IR does exist and it is not tied to the NFL IR. Jesteva believes only actual IR players should be on our IR, which isn't how we do it.


Basically, I have to be stubborn to get through the first waves of reasons that aren't supported by our rules. But I see the issue of proving IR eligible, and therefore if I draft a rule regarding it, I will try to make it clear and it wouldn't take effect until 2013.


I honestly believe it helps the league as a whole and am not doing it just for my team. I even said I would obey the five RB limit even if it happened this year.

I just feel like a lot of people do vote based on helping or hurting teams... If there is ever a rule change that could benefit me, I know a few teams who will vote against it on principle.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 14:44 
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Cyguy84 wrote:
I honestly believe it helps the league as a whole and am not doing it just for my team. I even said I would obey the five RB limit even if it happened this year.

And if that's the case I don't think you're doing it for the betterment of your team. All I've been doing since page 40 is say what's been enforced from the beginning (comply with roster max's pre/during/post auction/draft), even though it was obviously not well written. When the league was drafted up we input constraints that would ensure there would be some influx of talent into the auction each year. This was one of them, to make sure no one exceeded the roster maximum when making declarations for the auction, announcing contracts post auction, and during the draft. It obviously didn't make it to the by-laws though, which was an oversight on all of our parts. But it is what has been practiced since the league began.

Personally, I think the way it's been done, although not well written, is both simple and fair. I never worry too much about the IR in camp because no one can add any players until a couple of days before week 1 and since waivers are locked after week 16 I never worry about policing the IR/positional limits between then and declarations either. If teams do gain an advantage it's a minimal one. I did realize I was over the TE limit after trading for Graham in January and dumped Casey to comply, but had I not taken a peak at my roster to review a different trade I wouldn't have thought to do it. I'm sure others can relate, which is why I just don't worry about it until we're getting ready for the next season. The negatives to having as many manual processes and checks as this league has.

Re the IR and limits I only actively police it week-to-week in-season and make sure teams are within the roster max pre/during/post auction/draft and make sure people have enough $ to pay their guys in-auction. Maybe that needs to be changed, although I don't have a suggestion there, there's enough things that must be manually tracked in this league that I'm not adding another to the plate. Basically, this is my long winded way of saying I think the last thing this league needs is another manual rule. There are already more than enough. Automation leads to less mistakes, manual leads to more and it takes more time + effort. If anything I'm more interested in rule changes that make the league more automated and less manual. I don't have any suggestions, just saying is all.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 14:58 
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Quote:
If anything I'm more interested in rule changes that make the league more automated and less manual.



That was the point I was getting at when I suggested implementing an IR rule that could be enforced "automatically" - sans human intervention or interpretation.

To the best of my knowledge, MFL can't be configured that a player listed as "D" doubtful or even "Out" could then automatically count towards an IR type limit but if that's how you/we want the league to function within the rules during the season of moving a player with those designations into our IR rostered players - fine by me.

The quid pro quo may be increase the roster limits by 1 for at least the QB/RB/WR/TE positions and use the IR designation only as the means by which a player can actually be placed in one of our designated IR slots in which case, it's all system managed and monitored. It would eliminate being able to have a "D" or "O" player on your IR for a week but that's life.


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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 15:07 
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jesteva wrote:
Quote:
If anything I'm more interested in rule changes that make the league more automated and less manual.



That was the point I was getting at when I suggested implementing an IR rule that could be enforced "automatically" - sans human intervention or interpretation.

To the best of my knowledge, MFL can't be configured that a player listed as "D" doubtful or even "Out" could then automatically count towards an IR type limit but if that's how you/we want the league to function within the rules during the season of moving a player with those designations into our IR rostered players - fine by me.

The quid pro quo may be increase the roster limits by 1 for at least the QB/RB/WR/TE positions and use the IR designation only as the means by which a player can actually be placed in one of our designated IR slots in which case, it's all system managed and monitored. It would eliminate being able to have a "D" or "O" player on your IR for a week but that's life.

MFL can be set up to move a 'D' or 'O' guy be on the IR and that's what we do. The only policing needing done in-season is going through gameday and making sure no ineligible players are still on there from the prior week. If they're on there they get dropped from the owner's roster, I'm not too concerned with that manual process being changed as it only takes a minute of my time each week. I usually just do it late in the week when I'm setting my lineup and if I see any potential issues I make a post in the league thread serving as a reminder.

The manual processes I'm more concerned with are during the summer time when we're converting from the previous season to the next one. James is currently mining through one of the issues with starting this league on the fly - until 2 years ago no one tracked who had received what tag. I'm very wary that if something like Cy is proposing goes into fruition that there is no way but manually to execute it and it just adds to the summer to-do list.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 15:19 
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Somewhat unrelated note, boy am I glad IT lied to me about my new computer being ready today. As is I remain network connection-less so all I can do is serve as an overpaid receptionist. In other words, spend my day getting this figured out. Really would like to put this and everything else to bed by tomorrow morning though. Once I get my computer (they claim tomorrow morning sometime) I'm going to get buried at work and don't want to deal with anything HoP related until we get ready for the draft in May.

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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 16:42 
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Cyguy84 wrote:
jamcutpost wrote:
Cyguy84 wrote:
No offense jam, but I think you interpret rules based on what makes sense to you, not how the league has done it.


Absolutley none taken, compadre :thumbright: BUT ...

To paraphrase one of the points you were trying to make:

A player is on IR in 2011
There is no off-season IR report now till 2012
Therefore he is on IR till proven otherwise

My point was only to show you thats not a logic that holds. IR doesnt exist outside of FF "Sites" right now. And the only time it ever becomes of ANY passing interest is when there is roster activity allowed again and restrictions become imposed again. Something thats true of both the NFL and FF.

So i dont feel that im "interpreting" anything to be candid, only explaining to you why something you cited in your posts as being why your interpration was believable using your logic isnt necessarily so :)




Our IR is a fiction that we adopt to allow owners flexibility under a very strict roster limit.

Our IR takes input from the official NFL IR, from the injury report, and especially from who is active on game day.

The only policing mechanism in the bylaws for IR occurs during the season when players are active in NFL games but on IR in this website.


As a fiction, IR is whatever we want it to be, and is not based only on the NFL report and does not cease to exist when there are no NFL reports. I have pointed to several examples of people putting players on IR during the off season. I think it exists during this time and am fine with it being used.

I believe it has to be uses responsibly and only with players who will most likely be IR eligible, thus defeating the straw man argument of everyone stashing players in IR illegally and the integrity of the league being placed in jeopardy.

Also, something you have mentioned in the past as am abuse of IR is actually a legal practice as far as I know. Being able to pick up an injured player and keep them on IR, thus defying roster limits, is acceptable. Or at least I think it is, as I have done it and oar has done it.

The distinction here is they are kept until the auction because that is when they are deemed healthy. Oar and I agree that using IR to add a player in addition to the roster limits is fine. His actions show that placing a player on IR during the offseason is also fine. (He did it with brandon Tate and harry Douglas two years ago too).

[color=#40800]Where we disagree is he thinks once the auction rolls around, IR cannot be used. I think that historically, IR has not been used during the auction, but only because players weren't known to be injured then.[/color]

Very few players end up on pup list that are worthy of keeping. Even if they do, the only two positions were roster limits are an issue are RB and WR. Historically, I can't think of any RB or WR that were known to be injured at the time of the auction, and if there were any, I highly doubt any team suffered two at the same position.



That is why my team is extremely affected. But I stand by the practice on principle, not only as applied to me. Several owners have put players on IR in august and picked up replacements before the injury report came out. Nobody has done it before the auction because as I said, not many players were known to be injured that early. Remember, we used to hold the auction by early June.


Too many points, so will borrow a trick if thats okay?

#1/Blue
I refer you to the rule from a previous post about IR exemptions. I agree with you it needs redefining ... for the past couple of years youve said the bylaws will be updated. Its not been done. I still want my 3rd 5yr extension according to the by laws thanks.

If you and Oar picked up IR players is not the point. The point is did you all confirm to the hard cap including IR players at the roster cuts point 1 week post-auction?
Yes or No?

#2/Green

I refer you to my many previous posts about IR, we BOTH agree that it exists nowhere except in FF - right?

    We disagree that it means something for the whole of the start of the '12 season.
    With NO ROSTER movement allowed, there is NO COMPETITIVE advantage to using the IR.
    When ROSTER MOVEMENT is allowed, then there is an advantage to having it.

In the offseason there is (supposedly) no roster movement outside of trades, Correct? No waiver wire right. Not until the draft or the auction (whichever comes 1st)
So despite the fact that rosters are pretty much locked (barring trades) i could cut enough players that i COULDNT field a full team. No rule says i cant.
Thing is, there is a point where it does give another eam an ADVANTAGE. At the point that it ceases to be irrelevant (like IR prior to the Darft/Auction/ WW opening)
And THEN it starts to be policed ... Same with IR.

As long as its irrelevant? (ie right now and thru till roster cut offs both here and in the NFL which you keep telling me "we want to model ourselves on" and then keep telling me "it has nothing to do with FF" and then keep saying im the one making superfluous points [-X Naughty, naughty. Ive not taken exception to anything youve said thus far, but THAT i am REALLY beginning to take a great umbrage with and offense at) then noone cares about it & when it does become relevant it is adhered to again.


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PostPosted: Mon 04.09.2012, 17:36 
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Cyguy84 wrote:
Dude, your bullpoop slippery slope arguments are pissing me off.

Being on IR alone does not mean they can be left on IR past the auction. My point is if they tore their ACL or had another SERIOUS injury so late in the season that it would be unusual for them to start the season on an active roster, they are eligible.


So once again... On IR at end of last season == not automatically IR eligible
Likely to be on pup list == IR eligible, and as soon as they are active in training camp they have to be moved to active roster.

Stop the madness.


Your paper thin vacillations to try and wrangle a profit out of a grey area noone seems to have policed because it was deemed consensual is also rather irksome. Almost as much as the personal insults youve directed at a couple of sharks here so far.

Moving fwds, here are your points thus far:

1) We want the league like the NFL
2) We dont want the league like NFL
3) IR exists only in fantasy in the off season
4) PUP exists in the NFL in the off season/ Pre season
5) The Cyguy criteria for PUP eligibility so far:

Quote:
They had another SERIOUS injury so late in the season that it would be unusual for them to start the season on an active roster


So going fwds:

    Q. How late in the season should that be? Is it wk 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, play-offs, SB, what?
    Q. How serious should the injury be? Should we get an independent MD diagnosis?
    Q. Who determines it would be "unusual" to start on active? Which site should we use?
    Q. Is the unusualness determined by FF sites, the league, rotoworld, or a HoP competitions commitee?
    Q. What happens when the decision is made based on a guy that could train but is being held back as a precaution?

I only ask cause Sid Rice is still questionable for training camp guy, right now :shock: Is his injury "Unusual" enough that he might not play next season in camp? Does the fact he got injured early ... rather than late ... does that disqualify him from the "Cyguy" rule? Does a guy have to have TWO serious injuries as you said in your explaination "Another SERIOUS injury". He has two shoulder injuries, would that qualify (1 + 1)?

Stop the madness? Couldnt agree more.

As Jesteva has said ...
As Oar has said ...

Someone is making this WAY more complex than it need be.

Rereading the last few pages:

Youve accused Oar of bias
The rest of the league as being co-conspirators against you
Me? Well despite defending yo. Ach, you know what forget it ...

If you know what a "self fulfilling prophecy" is, congrats with that whole paranoid thing about "sometimes you think people vote against you just because etc etc" :party-smiley-050: =D> Youve succeeded in making a believer out of me.

I wont be one of them. Lifes a bit bigger than that, and ive posted in two posts that im sick of aspersions being thrown around about what people do and dont want in this league. Got no time for personal attacks and paranoia im afraid and ive said before i dont want any part of it :(

I will continue to wish the other owners a happy easter & apologies for filling up all the thread space. Ill be around, ill be active. Just not here. Those that need to contact me will easily find me :)

@Oar: ill fwd on what ive got from those 2 (almost 3 yrs) of FA. Ill let someone else fill in the blanks. Best not Cy tho - he could have his hands full during off-seasons from now on if he wants to implement what hes talking about.
@Jest: Im with you on the whole debacle. Reading thu it, best post in the last 3 pages ...

Except for the Animal/Bunny clip ;)

Best of luck with your off/pre season, guys :party-smiley-050:


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