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PostPosted: Wed 08.12.2009, 05:35 
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OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
I didn't know it was Riccardi's fault most of the pitching staff after Halladay is hurt. It's amazing how well the starting rotation is doing considering as of last season most of these guys were supposed to be counted on as anything more than spot starters.


Surely you're not saying Riccardi still deserves to be employed after almost a decade of uncompetitive baseball, despite having a 100 million dollar budget for a couple of years.

It's Riccardi's fault that this team has no direction. One year they are spending big money on guys like Frank Thomas, Troy Glaus, Rolen trying to win now. The next year, we're listening to offers on our 32 year old ace for a boatload of prospects. Then, a week later, we're expecting to compete next season after keeping our ace but trading our solid 3B for a couple prospects.

wth?!?!?!?! wth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This organization is a complete cluster"mess". Our mlb team is below average and our prospects are below average. Nobody wants to choose a direction and stick with it. Nobody wants to make the important decisions (trading an ace, firing Riccardi).
Not defending Riccardi's past mistakes...he's had a ton of them and imo deserves to be shown the door. I just don't get why this was the straw that broke the camel's back with some of you...not just here, other boards too. There are certain limitations teams like Toronto have to deal with and having your (as of sometime in 2008) 2, 3, and 4 pitcher out for all of 2009 is not something most teams like Toronto can come back from. I think they've done pretty well considering. To justify dealing Roy they should demand a top return, which Riccardi did, no one offered so they stood pat...correctly imo. If you had gotten similar to what Cleveland got for Cliff Lee you and every other Jays homer would be screaming 'rape' like most Cleveland fans have done...and that's about what Toronto was being offered.


I agree, he wasn't getting the value. I'm more pissed that this team has no direction. Now, Rios is gone, so:

- We keep Halladay because we're not getting value.
- JP says, we're going to compete next season.
- Trade Scott Rolen for an error prone and streaky at best 3B and 2 young arms. The best scenario replacement next year is Chone Figgins as a free agent, this is a downgrade and will likely cost us the same.
- Dump Alex Rios for NOTHING. The best scenario is we sign a guy like Abreu or Dye to play RF. Still a downgrade, but would save us money.

So, we're expected to compete next season, but now we have potentially HUGE holes at SS (I doubt we'll offer Scutero the money he'll want, we'll take the 2 first rounders), 3B, RF and a HUGE Vernon Wells contract messing with our financial flexibility. Doesn't sound like a move forward to me, so what's it gonna be JP?

I'd offer JP the benefit of the doubt, but he's done nothing to deserve that.

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PostPosted: Wed 08.12.2009, 08:43 
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TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
I didn't know it was Riccardi's fault most of the pitching staff after Halladay is hurt. It's amazing how well the starting rotation is doing considering as of last season most of these guys were supposed to be counted on as anything more than spot starters.


Surely you're not saying Riccardi still deserves to be employed after almost a decade of uncompetitive baseball, despite having a 100 million dollar budget for a couple of years.

It's Riccardi's fault that this team has no direction. One year they are spending big money on guys like Frank Thomas, Troy Glaus, Rolen trying to win now. The next year, we're listening to offers on our 32 year old ace for a boatload of prospects. Then, a week later, we're expecting to compete next season after keeping our ace but trading our solid 3B for a couple prospects.

wth?!?!?!?! wth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This organization is a complete cluster"mess". Our mlb team is below average and our prospects are below average. Nobody wants to choose a direction and stick with it. Nobody wants to make the important decisions (trading an ace, firing Riccardi).
Not defending Riccardi's past mistakes...he's had a ton of them and imo deserves to be shown the door. I just don't get why this was the straw that broke the camel's back with some of you...not just here, other boards too. There are certain limitations teams like Toronto have to deal with and having your (as of sometime in 2008) 2, 3, and 4 pitcher out for all of 2009 is not something most teams like Toronto can come back from. I think they've done pretty well considering. To justify dealing Roy they should demand a top return, which Riccardi did, no one offered so they stood pat...correctly imo. If you had gotten similar to what Cleveland got for Cliff Lee you and every other Jays homer would be screaming 'rape' like most Cleveland fans have done...and that's about what Toronto was being offered.


I agree, he wasn't getting the value. I'm more pissed that this team has no direction. Now, Rios is gone, so:

- We keep Halladay because we're not getting value.
- JP says, we're going to compete next season.
- Trade Scott Rolen for an error prone and streaky at best 3B and 2 young arms. The best scenario replacement next year is Chone Figgins as a free agent, this is a downgrade and will likely cost us the same.
- Dump Alex Rios for NOTHING. The best scenario is we sign a guy like Abreu or Dye to play RF. Still a downgrade, but would save us money.

So, we're expected to compete next season, but now we have potentially HUGE holes at SS (I doubt we'll offer Scutero the money he'll want, we'll take the 2 first rounders), 3B, RF and a HUGE Vernon Wells contract messing with our financial flexibility. Doesn't sound like a move forward to me, so what's it gonna be JP?

I'd offer JP the benefit of the doubt, but he's done nothing to deserve that.
Rolen's old and oft injured, relying on him for next season would not be wise imo. What you've gotten out of him this year wasn't expected, anything you would've gotten from him after he returns from the DL is also a bonus but as it turns out you traded him at the right time, before he inevitably hit the DL. Not saying the replacements available next season are anything special, but I don't get citing Rolen in the manner that you did. Encarnacion's not the answer, at least not defensively, he's something worse than a butcher but he can hit. I think the deal was part to accomodate Rolen's wants and part to get more pitching in the system. One is major league ready, the other should be next year from what I read and he could be a staple in the back end of the pen.

Rios isn't anything special and wasn't worth close to his bad contract, Riccardi bears the blame for the contract but it's better to realize a bad investment mid contract while you can still rid yourself of it than not at all, see Vernon Wells. I think Abreu would be an upgrade, Dye's not but if he's cheap enough...

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PostPosted: Wed 08.12.2009, 09:36 
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That's exactly the thing though, all the moves make sense when looked at individually, but when put together, they don't. How are you going to compete when you're shipping off your major league talent for nothing? How are you going to rebuild when you're not trading your major league talent for talented prospects?

I'll give it until the offseason until I completely loose my "poop" on this team. If I don't see a firm direction from a new GM, I will be very upset.

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PostPosted: Wed 08.12.2009, 09:46 
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TaZZ wrote:
That's exactly the thing though, all the moves make sense when looked at individually, but when put together, they don't. How are you going to compete when you're shipping off your major league talent for nothing? How are you going to rebuild when you're not trading your major league talent for talented prospects?

I'll give it until the offseason until I completely loose my "poop" on this team. If I don't see a firm direction from a new GM, I will be very upset.
Could it be an issue with ownership more than anything else?

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PostPosted: Wed 08.12.2009, 10:24 
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OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
That's exactly the thing though, all the moves make sense when looked at individually, but when put together, they don't. How are you going to compete when you're shipping off your major league talent for nothing? How are you going to rebuild when you're not trading your major league talent for talented prospects?

I'll give it until the offseason until I completely loose my "poop" on this team. If I don't see a firm direction from a new GM, I will be very upset.
Could it be an issue with ownership more than anything else?


It's an issue that the ownership has no balls to demand results from JP or fire him. Seriously... if you kept preforming below average on your job for 9 years. Promising your boss that you'd land the big contract and never did, would you still have a job?

What other GM has this kind of leeway?

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PostPosted: Wed 09.30.2009, 20:04 
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OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
I didn't know it was Riccardi's fault most of the pitching staff after Halladay is hurt. It's amazing how well the starting rotation is doing considering as of last season most of these guys were supposed to be counted on as anything more than spot starters.


Surely you're not saying Riccardi still deserves to be employed after almost a decade of uncompetitive baseball, despite having a 100 million dollar budget for a couple of years.

It's Riccardi's fault that this team has no direction. One year they are spending big money on guys like Frank Thomas, Troy Glaus, Rolen trying to win now. The next year, we're listening to offers on our 32 year old ace for a boatload of prospects. Then, a week later, we're expecting to compete next season after keeping our ace but trading our solid 3B for a couple prospects.

wth?!?!?!?! wth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This organization is a complete cluster"mess". Our mlb team is below average and our prospects are below average. Nobody wants to choose a direction and stick with it. Nobody wants to make the important decisions (trading an ace, firing Riccardi).
Not defending Riccardi's past mistakes...he's had a ton of them and imo deserves to be shown the door. I just don't get why this was the straw that broke the camel's back with some of you...not just here, other boards too. There are certain limitations teams like Toronto have to deal with and having your (as of sometime in 2008) 2, 3, and 4 pitcher out for all of 2009 is not something most teams like Toronto can come back from. I think they've done pretty well considering. To justify dealing Roy they should demand a top return, which Riccardi did, no one offered so they stood pat...correctly imo. If you had gotten similar to what Cleveland got for Cliff Lee you and every other Jays homer would be screaming 'rape' like most Cleveland fans have done...and that's about what Toronto was being offered.


I agree, he wasn't getting the value. I'm more pissed that this team has no direction. Now, Rios is gone, so:

- We keep Halladay because we're not getting value.
- JP says, we're going to compete next season.
- Trade Scott Rolen for an error prone and streaky at best 3B and 2 young arms. The best scenario replacement next year is Chone Figgins as a free agent, this is a downgrade and will likely cost us the same.
- Dump Alex Rios for NOTHING. The best scenario is we sign a guy like Abreu or Dye to play RF. Still a downgrade, but would save us money.

So, we're expected to compete next season, but now we have potentially HUGE holes at SS (I doubt we'll offer Scutero the money he'll want, we'll take the 2 first rounders), 3B, RF and a HUGE Vernon Wells contract messing with our financial flexibility. Doesn't sound like a move forward to me, so what's it gonna be JP?

I'd offer JP the benefit of the doubt, but he's done nothing to deserve that.
Rolen's old and oft injured, relying on him for next season would not be wise imo. What you've gotten out of him this year wasn't expected, anything you would've gotten from him after he returns from the DL is also a bonus but as it turns out you traded him at the right time, before he inevitably hit the DL. Not saying the replacements available next season are anything special, but I don't get citing Rolen in the manner that you did. Encarnacion's not the answer, at least not defensively, he's something worse than a butcher but he can hit. I think the deal was part to accomodate Rolen's wants and part to get more pitching in the system. One is major league ready, the other should be next year from what I read and he could be a staple in the back end of the pen.

Rios isn't anything special and wasn't worth close to his bad contract, Riccardi bears the blame for the contract but it's better to realize a bad investment mid contract while you can still rid yourself of it than not at all, see Vernon Wells. I think Abreu would be an upgrade, Dye's not but if he's cheap enough...
Rios' numbers since the dump

129 ab 3hr 6rbi .178 avg .213 obp

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PostPosted: Thu 10.01.2009, 21:54 
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OarChambo wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
TaZZ wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
I didn't know it was Riccardi's fault most of the pitching staff after Halladay is hurt. It's amazing how well the starting rotation is doing considering as of last season most of these guys were supposed to be counted on as anything more than spot starters.


Surely you're not saying Riccardi still deserves to be employed after almost a decade of uncompetitive baseball, despite having a 100 million dollar budget for a couple of years.

It's Riccardi's fault that this team has no direction. One year they are spending big money on guys like Frank Thomas, Troy Glaus, Rolen trying to win now. The next year, we're listening to offers on our 32 year old ace for a boatload of prospects. Then, a week later, we're expecting to compete next season after keeping our ace but trading our solid 3B for a couple prospects.

wth?!?!?!?! wth?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

This organization is a complete cluster"mess". Our mlb team is below average and our prospects are below average. Nobody wants to choose a direction and stick with it. Nobody wants to make the important decisions (trading an ace, firing Riccardi).
Not defending Riccardi's past mistakes...he's had a ton of them and imo deserves to be shown the door. I just don't get why this was the straw that broke the camel's back with some of you...not just here, other boards too. There are certain limitations teams like Toronto have to deal with and having your (as of sometime in 2008) 2, 3, and 4 pitcher out for all of 2009 is not something most teams like Toronto can come back from. I think they've done pretty well considering. To justify dealing Roy they should demand a top return, which Riccardi did, no one offered so they stood pat...correctly imo. If you had gotten similar to what Cleveland got for Cliff Lee you and every other Jays homer would be screaming 'rape' like most Cleveland fans have done...and that's about what Toronto was being offered.


I agree, he wasn't getting the value. I'm more pissed that this team has no direction. Now, Rios is gone, so:

- We keep Halladay because we're not getting value.
- JP says, we're going to compete next season.
- Trade Scott Rolen for an error prone and streaky at best 3B and 2 young arms. The best scenario replacement next year is Chone Figgins as a free agent, this is a downgrade and will likely cost us the same.
- Dump Alex Rios for NOTHING. The best scenario is we sign a guy like Abreu or Dye to play RF. Still a downgrade, but would save us money.

So, we're expected to compete next season, but now we have potentially HUGE holes at SS (I doubt we'll offer Scutero the money he'll want, we'll take the 2 first rounders), 3B, RF and a HUGE Vernon Wells contract messing with our financial flexibility. Doesn't sound like a move forward to me, so what's it gonna be JP?

I'd offer JP the benefit of the doubt, but he's done nothing to deserve that.
Rolen's old and oft injured, relying on him for next season would not be wise imo. What you've gotten out of him this year wasn't expected, anything you would've gotten from him after he returns from the DL is also a bonus but as it turns out you traded him at the right time, before he inevitably hit the DL. Not saying the replacements available next season are anything special, but I don't get citing Rolen in the manner that you did. Encarnacion's not the answer, at least not defensively, he's something worse than a butcher but he can hit. I think the deal was part to accomodate Rolen's wants and part to get more pitching in the system. One is major league ready, the other should be next year from what I read and he could be a staple in the back end of the pen.

Rios isn't anything special and wasn't worth close to his bad contract, Riccardi bears the blame for the contract but it's better to realize a bad investment mid contract while you can still rid yourself of it than not at all, see Vernon Wells. I think Abreu would be an upgrade, Dye's not but if he's cheap enough...
Rios' numbers since the dump

129 ab 3hr 6rbi .178 avg .213 obp
i was glad to see him struggle.


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PostPosted: Thu 10.01.2009, 21:55 
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The announcers were treating Halladay's start lastnight as his last for the Jays, should be an interesting offseason.


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PostPosted: Wed 12.09.2009, 21:49 
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Angels make a play for Halladay


INDIANAPOLIS - Alex Anthopoulos has spoke all week about having multiple balls in the air.

Now there is an offer on the table for Blue Jays right-hander Roy Halladay at the winter meetings.

The Angels took the lead amongst interested teams in the hunt for Halladay by offering:

- Lefty Joe Saunders, 28, who was 16-7 with a 4.60 earned run average in 31 starts. Saunders, available for trade since the Angels acquired lefty Scott Kazmir, walked 64 and struck out 101 in 186 innings. Saunders earned $475,000 this season and is eligible for salary arbitration.

- Shortstop Erick Aybar, 26 next month. He hit .312 with five homers and 58 RBIs in 137 games with the Angels. He stole 14 bases with a .353 on-base percentage. Aybar earned $473,000 and is eligible for salary arbitration.

- Speedy centre fielder Peter Bourjos, 23 in March, had six homers and 51 RBIs in 110 games at Double-A Arkansas. Bourjos, the son of former Jays scout Chris Bourjos, who helped sign Halladay, hit 16 doubles, 14 triples and was 32-for-44 stealing bases.

Both Saunders and Aybar would be under the Jays’ control for three years before they hit free agency.

What about newly-signed Alex Gonzalez with the arrival of Aybar?

Well, Gonzalez, signed to a one-year $2.75 million contract, with an option at $2.5 million for 2011, would be dealt.

For the second day in succession the Angels are the lead team in the chase for Halladay, a year away from free agency

And unless someone steps up with a better offer could the Angels wind up with Halladay? Will Halladay report to a west coast team which has spring training in Arizona?

“Let me ask you this,” said one major league executive, “do you think that the Angels would be running through hoops, having one conversation after another with the Jays and not know whether Halladay would report to Los Angeles?”

Good point.

The Angels are also in on free agents John Lackey, Jason Bay and Matt Holliday.

The New York Yankees moved prime prospect centre fielder Austin Jackson to add dynamic centre fielder Curtis Granderson and still have interest in Halladay. The Jays are said to want catching prospect Jesus Montero, who turned 20 last month. Montero hit .377 as a teen-ager with 17 homers and 70 RBIs at Single-A Tampa and Double-A Trenton.

Some talent evaluators say they do not think Montero will catch in the big leagues, but most agree he will hit and compare his numbers -- 28 walks, 47 strikeouts in 387 at-bats -- to that of a young Albert Pujols.

If the Yanks decide to part with a second prospect in a week, then the Jays have to decide if a package of either Phil Hughes or Joba Chamberlain, plus Montero is better than Saunders, Aybar and Bourjos, plus a prospect the Jays may get in return for Gonzalez.

So it looks like Halladay will be moved soon?

Let’s check with agent Scott Boras.

“I’ve been at this a long time,” said Boras. “It’s a general rule that you may give up money but you don’t give up players. Or you may attach players but you don’t give up money. There aren’t situations where teams give up both because it’s entirely too costly.

“My clients talk about Halladay and say the same. He’s hard to feel confident against him. You realize the respect the team has for him and you understand the value they’re going to require to trade him.

“I don’t see with a year to go a club could satisfy what Toronto should demand. I think that would be a very, very unlikely event.”

The balls remain in the air.


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PostPosted: Thu 12.10.2009, 16:07 
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Sources: Phils, Angels lead chase for Halladay

The Roy Halladay sweepstakes are back to where they were last July.

The Phillies and Angels again have emerged as the front-runners in trade discussions for the Blue Jays' ace right-hander, according to major-league sources.

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Ken Rosenthal, Jon Paul Morosi and Tracy Ringolsby have their fingers on the pulse of the MLB winter meetings. Get all the latest news from Indy.

The Phillies, one source said, are offering a package of young players, likely including left-hander J.A. Happ and one of two outfielders, Domonic Brown or Michael Taylor.

The Angels, as first reported by the Toronto Sun, are offering left-hander Joe Saunders, shortstop Erick Aybar and minor-league center fielder Peter Bourjos.

The Jays, weighing three- and four-team scenarios in an attempt to maximize their assets, likely would spin Saunders to another club for additional parts.

Trade talks are fluid, and other names likely are in play. Halladay's approval is needed for any deal, and he likely will require a contract extension to waive his no-trade clause.

The Phillies almost certainly would need to clear payroll space simply to acquire Halladay, perhaps by trading right-hander Joe Blanton, who figures to earn approximately $7 million in salary arbitration.

However, purging Blanton would not provide enough of a savings, one source said. The acquisition of Halladay, who will earn $15.75 million next season, would push the Phillies well beyond their budget limit, and other moves would be required.

At the same time, signing Halladay to an extension would give the Phillies protection against the possible loss of left-hander Cliff Lee to free agency after next season.

The Angels, meanwhile, are angling for Halladay while also trying to re-sign the best starting pitcher on the free-agent market, right-hander John Lackey. If they retained Lackey, they could pull out of the Halladay talks without losing any players.

All of the players under discussion from both the Angels and Phillies were part of the Halladay talks involving the respective clubs last July. But Halladay, entering the final year of his contract, does not have the same trade value he did then.

If either the Phillies or Angels lands him, they will give up less than they would have before the July 31 non-waiver deadline.


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PostPosted: Mon 12.14.2009, 16:07 
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It's interesting that the rumors about Lackey signing with the Red Sox seem to have stepped up the intensity of the rumors related to Halladay.

The 3 team trade involving the Jays, Phillies and a mystery 3rd team (Mariners, Angels, etc.) cropped up strong today.

SI's reporting it's a done deal with Lee moving on from the Phillies to the Mariners.


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PostPosted: Mon 12.14.2009, 16:22 
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Report: Halladay to Phils; Lee to M's?
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ESPN.com news services

All-Star pitcher Roy Halladay, who has been a regular subject of trade talk since before last July's deadline, is headed to the Philadelphia Phillies, SI.com is reporting.

Halladay
Halladay

According to the report, Phillies pitcher Cliff Lee is likely headed to the Seattle Mariners as part of a three-team trade.

Halladay was entering the final year of his Toronto contract.

The Phillies tried to acquire Halladay last season, but couldn't agree to terms with the Toronto Blue Jays. They then dealt for Lee instead.

Halladay, 32, is 148-76 lifetime with a 3.43 ERA. He won the 2003 Cy Young Award and finished in the top five in the Cy Young voting four other times.

Halladay went 17-10 with a 2.79 ERA in 32 starts for Toronto last season. He threw 239 innings and led the league with nine complete games.

Lee, who was acquired from the Indians on July 29 for four minor leaguers, quickly became Philadelphia's ace. Lee posted a 3.39 ERA in 12 starts for the Phillies and then went 4-0 with a 1.56 mark in five postseason outings, including 2-0 in the World Series.

Lee, the 2008 AL Cy Young winner with Cleveland, will make $8 million in 2010 and then be eligible for free agency.

Information from The Associated Press contributed to this report.


Not thrilled about losing Lee but its sounding like they couldnt get a long term deal done.


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PostPosted: Mon 12.14.2009, 18:17 
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Crazy.

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I heard Doc is in Philly right now going for a physical and discussing an extension. I wish the details would be released for who the Jays are getting since I am hearing plenty of names but nothing concrete.


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PostPosted: Mon 12.14.2009, 19:59 
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getting halladay to agree to a 3-year deal is unbelievable. Lackey who is not as good and only one year younger just got a 5-year deal.

Sucks to see Lee go, especially after what he did, but it's business (aka no loyalty) and the Phillies are a better team long-term now.


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