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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:12 
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BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Crackhead Bob wrote:
BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Crackhead Bob wrote:
I don't know my bible like I should but I do recall that in the beginning...in the garden of Eden that Man, Woman, and the beasts of the earth lived peacefully and co-existed in peace UNTIL man's sin.

So God loves his creations, but will not tolerate sin. So in my mind and my belief is that God is always good to those that live by His word. The sinner will be punished and we all are eternally punished for man's first sin.

It does state that, more or less... However what is accomplished by punishing his lesser creations? I think the argument of original sin (much like free will) only works for people, not so much on nature and natural disasters.


I believe...I do not know as fact therefore I'll use the words...I believe that God entrusted all his creations to the protection and responsibility of man. Therefore his sin becomes there sin. It's a lessen in responsibility, accountability, and punishment for sin.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Isn't that same verse contrary to the concept of Omnibenevolence? Omnibenevolence, as it is traditionally defined, simply means "unlimited or infinite benevolence". Anyone that would punish in such a manner is not omnibenevolent according to the traditional definition.


in a narrow scope, point made. however the story doesn't end there...Jesus says, "For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened." (Luke 11:10 ESV) which explicitly means that anyone is capable of atoning grace through the work of Christ on the cross-therefore the fruits of Christ are freely given to all-such a gift, grace, can only be offered by "infinite benevolence".

do you subscribe to a postmodern view of the Bible or see the metanarrative?


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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:19 
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BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Then that definitely does not fit with traditional omnibenevolence. Which again is why I'm questioning if the Bible/Torah/Koran actually make these claims at all. So far I'm pretty sold that the Bible doesn't...


And they may not say that specifically or implicitly, but the argument seems to stem from our interpretation of that regardless which side you take.

Like you I'm not sure that the bible says that He is always good, but I do believe that all He does or has done is for the greater good.


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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:25 
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ffking24 wrote:
BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Crackhead Bob wrote:
BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Crackhead Bob wrote:
I don't know my bible like I should but I do recall that in the beginning...in the garden of Eden that Man, Woman, and the beasts of the earth lived peacefully and co-existed in peace UNTIL man's sin.

So God loves his creations, but will not tolerate sin. So in my mind and my belief is that God is always good to those that live by His word. The sinner will be punished and we all are eternally punished for man's first sin.

It does state that, more or less... However what is accomplished by punishing his lesser creations? I think the argument of original sin (much like free will) only works for people, not so much on nature and natural disasters.


I believe...I do not know as fact therefore I'll use the words...I believe that God entrusted all his creations to the protection and responsibility of man. Therefore his sin becomes there sin. It's a lessen in responsibility, accountability, and punishment for sin.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; he will crush your head, and you will strike his heel."
Isn't that same verse contrary to the concept of Omnibenevolence? Omnibenevolence, as it is traditionally defined, simply means "unlimited or infinite benevolence". Anyone that would punish in such a manner is not omnibenevolent according to the traditional definition.


in a narrow scope, point made. however the story doesn't end there...Jesus says, "For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened." (Luke 11:10 ESV) which explicitly means that anyone is capable of atoning grace through the work of Christ on the cross-therefore the fruits of Christ are freely given to all-such a gift, grace, can only be offered by "infinite benevolence".

do you subscribe to a postmodern view of the Bible or see the metanarrative?

I think as a christian you have to subscribe to the metanarrative or the collection of stories fails to make a whole. I understand your argument, however most arguments of theism as a whole follow a considerably more postmodern view as it is impossible to encompass all western religions with a single metanarrative. In order to logically debate, you have to at minimum understand a post modern view, without which you are basically just full of buts.

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:32 
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Crackhead Bob wrote:
BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Then that definitely does not fit with traditional omnibenevolence. Which again is why I'm questioning if the Bible/Torah/Koran actually make these claims at all. So far I'm pretty sold that the Bible doesn't...


And they may not say that specifically or implicitly, but the argument seems to stem from our interpretation of that regardless which side you take.

Like you I'm not sure that the bible says that He is always good, but I do believe that all He does or has done is for the greater good.

That's the problem with interpretation... Eight people read the same thing and take away eight different points. When encountering interpretation you also open up to the argument of man's meddling with the bible. Any such discussion must include the Church of England's instruction from a king to make the bible fit a view etc etc...

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:44 
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BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Free Will argument... that works for man caused evil, man does not cause hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions etc. Man is also not the cause of unnecessary violence in nature.


The Creation account explains that the "firmament", or sky, has water both above and below it. There are various theories to try and understand this; one is that before the flood there was a water and ice layer as the final layer of our atmosphere - I don't recall now the name of the principle of physics that explains how that works, it's been awhile. Anyhow, this creates hyperbaric (sp?) conditions on Earth, and among the many effects is there is no direct sunlight, instead it is filtered evenly through that water/ice layer. This would drastically change evaporation patterns, which in turn change wind patterns, which in turn changes weather patterns, etc. etc. etc. The upshot is that there are no hurricanes, or any storms. Interesting that the Bible also tells us that there was no rain before the flood. Hmm .. .. ..

Other theories deal with earthquakes and various platonic theories, rising and falling mountains/volcanoes, and earthquakes. If there is even some truth found in these theories, then it can logically be concluded that man is indeed responsible for the existence of hurricanes, earthquakes, volcanic eruptions, etc.


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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 00:58 
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Why do we imprison rapists? Wouldn't a benevolent culture not punish rapists? Or, at least, lightly punish them?

Now, that's a rather absurd position to take. Yet, one takes that exact position when one argues that a benevolent god wouldn't harshly punish the wrongdoers of society. Why is it benevolent to be merciful to them, but not deliver justice to the victims? Wouldn't the victims of these crimes then justifiably claim that this god is not at all benevolent? An all good god would have to deliver justice in order to be all good.

We can't have it both ways.


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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 01:49 
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el capitan wrote:
Why do we imprison rapists? Wouldn't a benevolent culture not punish rapists? Or, at least, lightly punish them?

Now, that's a rather absurd position to take. Yet, one takes that exact position when one argues that a benevolent god wouldn't harshly punish the wrongdoers of society. Why is it benevolent to be merciful to them, but not deliver justice to the victims? Wouldn't the victims of these crimes then justifiably claim that this god is not at all benevolent? An all good god would have to deliver justice in order to be all good.

We can't have it both ways.


Benevolence and Omnibenevolence are different things... Everyone seems to keep falling back to basic benevolence, which no one is denying.

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 01:58 
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und2006 wrote:
Fighting Amish wrote:
feral pig wrote:
God, as a creation of man, is whatever you want him to be.


..and you, a creation of..gaia? can hopefully be all you can be too. :wink:


Does the tank have to give you the birds and the bees talk? Mr. Pig is a creation of Mr. Pig Sr. and Mrs. Pig.



:lol: das true..

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 02:00 
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BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
el capitan wrote:
Why do we imprison rapists? Wouldn't a benevolent culture not punish rapists? Or, at least, lightly punish them?

Now, that's a rather absurd position to take. Yet, one takes that exact position when one argues that a benevolent god wouldn't harshly punish the wrongdoers of society. Why is it benevolent to be merciful to them, but not deliver justice to the victims? Wouldn't the victims of these crimes then justifiably claim that this god is not at all benevolent? An all good god would have to deliver justice in order to be all good.

We can't have it both ways.


Benevolence and Omnibenevolence are different things... Everyone seems to keep falling back to basic benevolence, which no one is denying.


That's a fair point. But if one is to say that something is all-good, it would have to encompass justice. If one means by all-good that everyone is treated ... nicely? ... then it would be impossible to be all good. Unless I'm missing something here, and you mean something different than I do with the term omnibenevolence.


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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 03:29 
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BuckeyeFtblGod wrote:
Crackhead Bob wrote:
natural disasters for lack of a better word are only "evil" or "disastrous" because man has deemed them to be. These things without the presence of man would be merely be natural.

Man settled on top of fault lines and next to the sea knowing that earthquakes, tsunamis, & hurricanes are naturally occurring and inherently dangerous phenomenon that comes with the territory. I mean those living on the eastern seaboard know that every year there is a hurricane season. Those living on the western seaboard know they are living on one of the most active fault lines in the world. Those living at the base of Mt Kilimanjaro know they live at the foot of an active volcano.

That makes none of those things evil. Same goes for the beasts of this world. They are not evil. They merely survive as God intended them to survive. It's not unnecessarily violent. It's inherently violent. A hyena and lion cannot survive without eating the wildebeest. The snake cannot survive without eating the mouse.

Man is the only beast that routinely and against it's own survival instincts performs evil deeds. You've never seen hyenas decide that all wildebeests must die and attempt to eradicate them from the face of the earth. The hyena has enough sense to take what it must to survive and no more.

It's all a part of a natural checks & balances system. Circle of life.


Bolded part is exactly the point... God created a violent place. Does someone who is omnibenevolent create something of this level of violence? You view it as necessary because that is the norm you know.

BTW I'm not a tree hugging hippie that hates religion as this thread may seem. I'm just playing the role of devil's advocate here for the sake of exploring the arguments.


That's pretty obvious man..and even if you were a "hater"..it wouldn't change the matter for the sake of discussion anyway. This is a topic that can not be discussed in bitterness or anger..you share understanding, and hope and pray some truth will surface and make some real sense.

As to your first contention.." God created a violent place "

No he didnt. He made earth as a home for mankind to live in perfect love and harmony with him. Period. Look at the words of the simple well known prayer. The Our Father.

Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed be they name. They kingdom come, they will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven"

God's perfect will to have a face to face perfect, loving joyous relationship with mankind has hit a bump in teh road...our home, earth is NOT in God's will and in his desire for us..but it will be, and that prayer is is a prayer to have it come soon. A simple bequest to hurry it, the only tru hope for mankind.

Why our earth here is the way it is, hurricanes, earthquakes..why we suffer, are hurt, have pain, cry, and eventually die is because of sin and rebellion. Not God's plan. God's plan however would not allow mankind to not have hope of redemption and coming back to God's perfection and love. God is perfect love.. perfect justice too, and his sending a Savior to make things right on our behalf, is much like a defense attorney in front of the judge. The prosecutor/accuser stands in front of the judge..(satan) condemning mankind for our transgression and sin, and thus, according to God's justice and own word he can not go back on, we are guilty. Deserve..death. Un-life..non existence. He does not want that for us. The defense attorney/savior stands up on mankind's defense at that time and says, quite simply, but powerfully, "hold it judgey, I paid that price, paid that penalty of death for their sin, they are free to go." That's it.

The earth and all that is in it will go back to God's perfect will and mankind will inhabit it..forever. No more wars, hurricanes of violent earth. We are simply in a time period now of "having our own way" When that runs it's course and we have proven..eventually.. after getting our own way, what that ultimate conclusion will be, the end will come. That ultimate conclusion, however far into our own present day future, will result in our ability to one day pull the trigger in a future conflict, that if God does not intervene at that moment, no flesh will have survived. That was told thousands of years ago..and today, we have that capability. Our generation can see that for the first time..as a possibility, like no other generation. Coincidence? No, just further proof of the Bibles accuracy and surety of the outcome of events. The good news is..everyone...anyone can be there in that perfect earth for all eternity. Just want to.

OmniBenevolence? yes..the current sadness, violence and death is based purely on mankind's wanting our own way, nobody is going to tell us what to do..we have free will, and have chosen a path. One day, it will all be straightened out. The story ends well. You'll see.

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 04:32 
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BFG said:
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I like your train of thought here... I think the definition of good presented in Philosophy is the logical definition, aka absence of bad/evil. From that standpoint is where Omnibenevolence is easily challenged. I'll throw out a few logical examples...

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then whence evil?” -David Hume

If God exists, then there can be no pointless evil.
There is pointless evil.
Therefore there is no god <<< Basic but classic argument

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/evil/#IndVerArgEvi

It keeps going, but I agree with your need to define good. I think if you defined statements such as "God is good" to mean that the positive things that happen in the world are God as opposed to morally excellent; virtuous it is a much easier argument. The problem of defining good as virtuous, or morally excellent gives legs to the argument of atheist. God's own actions in the bible don't support someone who is always virtuous or benevolent


The flaw in the reasoning is a complex answer..but I'll try and give it a brief shot. First the premise of the arguments are not true. Disavowing the entire argument.

If God exists, then there can be no pointless evil.
There is pointless evil.
Therefore there is no god <<< Basic but classic argument

God hates evil (cf. Ps. 5:4; 34:16; Hab. 1:13; Jas. 1:13). So, the Christian, Jew, Mulsim must admit that, all things being equal, God would prefer that evil not exist in his creation. This is why the Bible teaches that God will one day eradicate evil from his creation as I stated in the other post. We are in the era of "having our own way" We were guardians and title deed owners of this earth and gave up that right when we rebelled and gave it to Satan. The flaw of rebellion and evil was found in him and this world's issues of evil, hate, suffering and death within the pages of our time here on earth are the direct result of that act. It is not God's will, and he will make that right again one day. Free will is a powerful thing, we have it, used it and are dealing with having our own way. God's dealing with evil by the use of anger and punishment in the Bible is the fact that God hates evil..and what evil men do to the innocent, and to set an example and reproof, a message of discipline, to put it in simpler terms.

An omnibenevolent being/God has a plain and clear, or self-evident desire to prevent evil. That is, leaving all other possible considerations aside, God has some reason to prevent evil...or so it stands to reason given the premise. But, this is consistent with God having some reason to permit evil as well.

What constitutes a morally reasonable excuse for God to allow evil? As an omnibenevolent being? Is that what your looking for?

God in his perfect love and perfect justice must allow a free will creation and child of mankind ( all of us) to run our course in having our own way to see the error of our ways. The eventual outcome of telling him STFU... I don't want you. Forced love is not love. Forced, compulsory relationships are anything but true love. The knowledge of Good and Evil is a moral choice that mankind must deal with. The choice is ours, for now, until the matter and issue are settled and evil, sin, temptation are eliminated. Does that makes sense?

Here's a good article that might help you with the project..

http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2011/03/can ... be_omn.php

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 11:54 
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"All good" doesn't really explain it. I certainly think "all good" is correct but the problem is imperfect mortals do not always have a full understanding of what exactly is "good".

For instance we generally only relate to how we feel about situations and occurences. A good example would be that one of our children became ill, and subsequently died. On the surface we would only see this as a bad thing and certainly an emotionaly painful thing for those of us left alive. We would question, perhaps rightfully, how a God that is "all good" could allow such pain and suffering to occur, how he could 'take' an innocent child who apparently had so much to live for. We would question God's very "good"ness.

But of course we lack his eternal perspective. We do not know all he knows. We do not see what all of the consequences of that seemingly senseless and untimely death might be. Perhaps in the long run that death reinvigorated a failing marriage and provided a solid, intact, family for the remaining siblings. Perhaps this is something God knows would occur and under any other scenario it would not have happened.

God is God because he knows the law and perfectly lives by the law. That is what makes him God. He knows the consequences of actions and events. He knows the long term and behaves accordingly. Seemingly unjust and painful occurences are perhaps for the long term good. We have all had things occur in our lives that were apparently bad at the time they happened but after time and hindsight occur we realize we are much better off because they occured.

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 11:58 
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finite beings trying to explain and comprehend an infinite Creator.

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PostPosted: Sat 02.11.2012, 13:05 
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getdownmmmkay wrote:
finite beings trying to explain and comprehend an infinite Creator.


Well said. And Understood. However, God has revealed himself to us in many ways.

1) Elohim--So the word Elohim might have meant to the Hebrews, "The great mighty three-in-one God who establishes and keeps covenant forever." The prefix "El" signifies "one who is great, mighty, dreadful


2) El Shaddai--It is always translated "The Almighty.


3) Adonai--A 3rd name that God uses for Himself is Adonai. It occurs about 300 times in the O.T. This name suggests Lordship and ownership. When God calls Himself by this name, Adonai, He is saying, "I am the One who owns and rules over everthing that exists."


4) YHWH -Yahweh---But the most frequently used name for God is not Elohim, El Shaddai, or Adonai.

The most frequently used name for God is YAHWEH or Jehovah.

It occurs more than 6800 times in the Bible.

The greatest Jewish commentator on the O.T. of the Middle Ages, Moses Maimonides, said this about the name Jehovah (and it is a true statement), "All the names for God that occur in the Scriptures are derived from His works, except one, and that is Jehovah. And this is called the plain name because it teaches plainly and unequivocally of the substance of God."

The Word literally means "I Am." It comes from the verb which means "to be" or "to exist."

In Ex. 3:14, when Moses asked God what His name was so he could tell the Israelites who had sent him, we read, "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM [Yahweh, or Jehovah]: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

Jehovah--The Eternal One. The Ever-Living One. The Self-Existent One.

He lives from Eternity past to Eternity future. And everything else that lives gets its life from Him.

5) Jehovah-Jireh--The first one, Jehovah Jireh is found in Genesis 22:14. It literally means "The Lord Provides."

6) Jehovah-Rophe--The Second compound name we come upon is Jehovah Rophe. It is in Exodus 15:26. It means "The Lord who Heals"

7) Jehovah-Nissi---Then there is Jehovah Nissi. This is found in Exodus 17:15. It literally means "God, my Banner or God my Standard of Victory"

8) Jehovah-M'Kaddesh --Next, in Lev 20:8 we find the compound name, Jehovah M'Kaddesh.

" And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the LORD which sanctify you"

Literally, "I am the Lord Who makes you Holy." Or "Who sets you apart for My Use."

The Jewish people regardless of how people feel about them today are still his chosen people. There is no such thing as the current mania in many Christian churches called "replacement Theology" where Christians now are the benefactors of all teh Jewish promises from God. Wrong. That's just another twisted malevolent anti-Semitic attack. Subtle, this one due to it's claims of "religiosity". God made a covenant with the Jewish people and will certainly watch it, and make it happen specifically, directly accurately as stated. God chose a stubborn, stiffed neck and rebellious group to bring mankind back to himself. Not just teh Jews, but all mankind. He has disciplined them as a father would child, but he has also allowed a people, with no standing army, no country to protect them to survive the death sentence for 2,000 years of wandering throughout the world..until 1948. A prophesied miracle in and of itself that is incredible because we all lived to see it.

Jehovah-Shammah--Next go to Ezek 48:35. It is the last verse in the book of Ezekiel.
The last part of the vision of Ezekiel was of a new city, with a new temple. It was to be glorious. And the last words of this verse tell us the name of the city. In Hebrew is is named a compound name of God--Jehovah-Shammah. He is "The Eternal God who is There."

Literally, God is with us, here, now.


Jehovah-Shalom--The next name is found in Judges 6:24. God is Peace

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