Week 14 - TNF - Jaguars vs Titans

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OarChambo wrote:
Markulous wrote:I definitely agree with management being an issue. My guess right now is that Dave Caldwell is gone, which was probably the plan all along bringing in Coughlin. Coughlin can now either just take full control or basically hire an assistant with the title of GM to do his bidding. We had some big hits drafting (particularly those 3 players I mentioned plus Telvin Smith) and in FA (Malik Jackson, Calais), but there were a ton of misses too. Everyone knew Bortles would ultimately define Caldwell's tenure and unfortunately it didn't work out.

Here's my issue with coaching. Our DC basically was handed the job because he was on staff, we didn't vet anyone else (same with our OC both times). Looking at this year and last year in particular, his soft zone crap just doesn't work. You have arguably the best DB tandem in the league with a good FS and a top DL, and 2 very athletic LBs, why on earth would you play a soft zone coverage? That's part of the reason of what cost us the win last year in New England. We were ahead and started backing off only to let Brady pick us apart. If we would have just stuck with press/man coverage, we would have been playing the Eagles in the SB. This year, I see the same garbage.

I also question Marrone's control over the locker room. I wouldn't be pissed if they brought him back as long as we have different coordinators that we actually vet and interview externally, but if there's no improvement within a year or two with new management and new coordinators, Marrone has to go.
I don't think you're wrong about what will happen, but I don't think it'll get the team back on a winning track. This team's series of bad decisions began about the same time Coughlin came to power. Sure, Caldwell is a convenient fall guy and his trust in Bortles is ultimately his undoing, but how is this team going to improve with the resources available and current structure of the rooster?

Cap strapped, no quarterback, argument there isn't a single cornerstone piece anywhere on the offense, and the defense is either north of prime age or chasing a contract in 2020 that Jacksonville probably can't give them without wrecking themselves further.

Yeah, all really good points and valid questions. I really don't know. The only people on offense that are safe this year are Fournette, Linder, Norwell (due to his contract and I guess he improved), and DeDe. While it's good having a guy like Linder, it's not enough to build around (none of them are, to your point) and you don't want to build your team around a RB, that's how you end up in this mess. We still need a QB first and foremost, a legit WR1, and better O-lineman.

Here would be my ways to save money:
Cut Parnell, Cut Bortles, Cut Barry Church, Cut/Restructure Dareus (he is a good run-stuffer, but if he won't restructure, he has to go).

Malik Jackson and Calais are the tough ones. They drafted Taven Bryan in hopes he could replace Malik, I'm almost sure of it, but a pass rusher (whether it's edge or 3 tech or OLB etc) takes time to develop typically and he isn't there yet. I'd personally look at what their trade value is and go that route. They would be big losses, but we also need to retain are young/upcoming players and Calais isn't getting any younger.

That should give us enough cap space unless we plan on making big FA acquisitions, which at this point I don't see happening.
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Parnell, Dareus, and Church are toast. Hyde too. What a dumb trade.

Bortles carries a cap hit of $16.5m next year. He isn't going anywhere. Re-negotiate to lessen the $5m in 2020? Maybe, but that'd sure be an awkward play. And would dip into 2019's pool. Probably best to just let it ride and just plan to give your 2019 backup the axe 14 months from now.

Jackson and Campbell (Bouye too) will be the ones to follow to see what management will do to free up money (or not). Will they go the way of Buffalo and say screw the future and make room now, deferring problems to future years. Or will they leave the contracts as is and just operate on a tighter right now budget.

But here's the thing, all those contract gymnastics. That's needed just to retain (some of) what you already have. Like you said, FA probably isn't the game you're playing. Nor should you. Not given the hand management dealt themselves. So the only way this team can address those holes without making future years even worse is the usually multi year approach through the draft.
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I know Bortles has a cap hit of 16M regardless, but IIRC, they can still save ~5m by cutting him. I mean I guess you can have him just sit there, but you can just cut him too since he really shouldn't be seeing the field regardless.

Bouye I suppose could be a casualty. He has played pretty well like the other guys. Maybe if they think Meeks or whoever can play outside and not be a liability, they can go that route.

Yeah, they can't just completely gut everything and start over, that would be silly. Just gotta hope we draft well. A QB, whether it be from drafting or hitting the lotto in a trade, will go quite a long ways though to making this team better.
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Markulous wrote:Bouye I suppose could be a casualty.

I don't think he (or Jackson or Campbell) will be casualties. Cap hit is too high - on all of them. It's do the Jags renegotiate their contracts to free up more money now, deferring more to future years. Sure, they'll save some money by giving the axe to any of them as is (contract > cap hit), but unless you're using the saved cash to pay for a QB (who?) I don't see the point. It isn't like they're liabilities. They're all productive players. Just a poor use of aggregate spending on this team.
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OarChambo wrote:
Markulous wrote:Bouye I suppose could be a casualty.

I don't think he (or Jackson or Campbell) will be casualties. Cap hit is too high - on all of them. It's do the Jags renegotiate their contracts to free up more money now, deferring more to future years. Sure, they'll save some money by giving the axe to any of them as is (contract > cap hit), but unless you're using the saved cash to pay for a QB (who?) I don't see the point. It isn't like they're liabilities. They're all productive players. Just a poor use of aggregate spending on this team.

Right, I gotcha. Guess we just see what this offseason brings. We can go after someone like Flacco, but the cap hit shouldn't be that high for someone like that. Unless we hit the lotto and manage to make some epic trade for Rodgers, I don't see a big QB contract coming anytime soon. Even if we moved up to the #1 pick, the QB we took there wouldn't be a huge cap hit.

Deferring wouldn't be bad as long as we can adequately move on from them if/when we need the cash. We'll see how Idzik and Coughlin does with the new contracts for those other guys. I'd guess Ramsey would come first (maybe even before camp) then if Ngakoue keeps it up, he'll probably be next, followed by Jack.
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Markulous wrote:Deferring wouldn't be bad as long as we can adequately move on from them if/when we need the cash.

That's the thing - you almost certainly won't. It'll be like what Buffalo's dealt with the last 2 seasons, which is why my heels are dug in about management and not coaching.
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OarChambo wrote:
Markulous wrote:Deferring wouldn't be bad as long as we can adequately move on from them if/when we need the cash.

That's the thing - you almost certainly won't. It'll be like what Buffalo's dealt with the last 2 seasons, which is why my heels are dug in about management and not coaching.

Yeah, I really don't want to be dug into a hole like that. We've front-loaded most contracts for a reason, and that's so we aren't stuck in cap hell in the future. There's really no point doing that when we aren't in a window for a Super Bowl. Good pass rushers and DBs are pretty desirable, so I'd personally say try to strike a trade while they still have value. I don't see the point keeping together an "elite" defense either when they aren't playing like it.
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OarChambo wrote:
Markulous wrote:I definitely agree with management being an issue. My guess right now is that Dave Caldwell is gone, which was probably the plan all along bringing in Coughlin. Coughlin can now either just take full control or basically hire an assistant with the title of GM to do his bidding. We had some big hits drafting (particularly those 3 players I mentioned plus Telvin Smith) and in FA (Malik Jackson, Calais), but there were a ton of misses too. Everyone knew Bortles would ultimately define Caldwell's tenure and unfortunately it didn't work out.

Here's my issue with coaching. Our DC basically was handed the job because he was on staff, we didn't vet anyone else (same with our OC both times). Looking at this year and last year in particular, his soft zone crap just doesn't work. You have arguably the best DB tandem in the league with a good FS and a top DL, and 2 very athletic LBs, why on earth would you play a soft zone coverage? That's part of the reason of what cost us the win last year in New England. We were ahead and started backing off only to let Brady pick us apart. If we would have just stuck with press/man coverage, we would have been playing the Eagles in the SB. This year, I see the same garbage.

I also question Marrone's control over the locker room. I wouldn't be pissed if they brought him back as long as we have different coordinators that we actually vet and interview externally, but if there's no improvement within a year or two with new management and new coordinators, Marrone has to go.
I don't think you're wrong about what will happen, but I don't think it'll get the team back on a winning track. This team's series of bad decisions began about the same time Coughlin came to power. Sure, Caldwell is a convenient fall guy and his trust in Bortles is ultimately his undoing, but how is this team going to improve with the resources available and current structure of the rooster?

Cap strapped, no quarterback, argument there isn't a single cornerstone piece anywhere on the offense, and the defense is either north of prime age or chasing a contract in 2020 that Jacksonville probably can't give them without wrecking themselves further.


This is probably an unpopular opinion, but what's the difference between Blake Bortles and Mitchell Trubisky?

Both are gunslingers that have very inconsistent mechanics. Both are deceptively good runners with strong arms, with the ability to make both extremely bad passes and passes that make you think, "wow, this guy could totally be a franchise QB"

The answer, in my opinion, is the supporting cast. Blocking, Coaching, Receivers, all of these are advantage Trubisky. There are just so many damn levers to pull in CHI when the defenses have shown the ability to stop one of them that the offense just keeps on trucking. That type of versatility is lost in JAX; where O-line injuries have decimated the offenses ability to utilize their receivers properly.

What drives the stark difference in public opinion on these players is the false narrative that the QB makes the receiver. What we're seeing in a lot of offenses at the moment, is that QBs are a lot like coaches. Yes, good ones make the offense better; but they can't make bad players good. Rodgers is having one of his worst seasons ever despite having some of the best blocking he's ever had. His receiving core isn't even that bad with Davante Adams being a true weapon this year, and Jimmy Graham being the best TE he's ever had. The problem is the receivers outside of them are extremely young, and just aren't ready to be quality NFL receivers yet.
The whole Rodgers WR2 has been a top 20 receiver his whole career has driven the narrative that's led to MVS's meteoric rise in Dynasty value after 4 straight quality games... but what's happened since then?

At some point you have to give credit to the whole offense; putting all of the success at the feet of one player, even one as great as Rodgers, is just not entirely correct. It's a symbiotic relationship between QB, Blocking, and Receiver and more times than not we're searching for a scape goat assuming that one change is just going to drastically change the production of an offense.

Bortles has been the scapegoat of the Jaguars offensive woes, and although I realize he's a flawed QB... moving on from him this year in a weak QB class is a massive mistake, especially when you consider the cap implications.
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Just saw that 99 yard run by Henry today. So pathetic by the Jags. Do they don't know how to push someone out of bounds, or tackle someone's legs? Wow, that was really pathetic.
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zuggyawesome wrote:
OarChambo wrote:
Markulous wrote:I definitely agree with management being an issue. My guess right now is that Dave Caldwell is gone, which was probably the plan all along bringing in Coughlin. Coughlin can now either just take full control or basically hire an assistant with the title of GM to do his bidding. We had some big hits drafting (particularly those 3 players I mentioned plus Telvin Smith) and in FA (Malik Jackson, Calais), but there were a ton of misses too. Everyone knew Bortles would ultimately define Caldwell's tenure and unfortunately it didn't work out.

Here's my issue with coaching. Our DC basically was handed the job because he was on staff, we didn't vet anyone else (same with our OC both times). Looking at this year and last year in particular, his soft zone crap just doesn't work. You have arguably the best DB tandem in the league with a good FS and a top DL, and 2 very athletic LBs, why on earth would you play a soft zone coverage? That's part of the reason of what cost us the win last year in New England. We were ahead and started backing off only to let Brady pick us apart. If we would have just stuck with press/man coverage, we would have been playing the Eagles in the SB. This year, I see the same garbage.

I also question Marrone's control over the locker room. I wouldn't be pissed if they brought him back as long as we have different coordinators that we actually vet and interview externally, but if there's no improvement within a year or two with new management and new coordinators, Marrone has to go.
I don't think you're wrong about what will happen, but I don't think it'll get the team back on a winning track. This team's series of bad decisions began about the same time Coughlin came to power. Sure, Caldwell is a convenient fall guy and his trust in Bortles is ultimately his undoing, but how is this team going to improve with the resources available and current structure of the rooster?

Cap strapped, no quarterback, argument there isn't a single cornerstone piece anywhere on the offense, and the defense is either north of prime age or chasing a contract in 2020 that Jacksonville probably can't give them without wrecking themselves further.


This is probably an unpopular opinion, but what's the difference between Blake Bortles and Mitchell Trubisky?

Both are gunslingers that have very inconsistent mechanics. Both are deceptively good runners with strong arms, with the ability to make both extremely bad passes and passes that make you think, "wow, this guy could totally be a franchise QB"

The answer, in my opinion, is the supporting cast. Blocking, Coaching, Receivers, all of these are advantage Trubisky. There are just so many damn levers to pull in CHI when the defenses have shown the ability to stop one of them that the offense just keeps on trucking. That type of versatility is lost in JAX; where O-line injuries have decimated the offenses ability to utilize their receivers properly.

What drives the stark difference in public opinion on these players is the false narrative that the QB makes the receiver. What we're seeing in a lot of offenses at the moment, is that QBs are a lot like coaches. Yes, good ones make the offense better; but they can't make bad players good. Rodgers is having one of his worst seasons ever despite having some of the best blocking he's ever had. His receiving core isn't even that bad with Davante Adams being a true weapon this year, and Jimmy Graham being the best TE he's ever had. The problem is the receivers outside of them are extremely young, and just aren't ready to be quality NFL receivers yet.
The whole Rodgers WR2 has been a top 20 receiver his whole career has driven the narrative that's led to MVS's meteoric rise in Dynasty value after 4 straight quality games... but what's happened since then?

At some point you have to give credit to the whole offense; putting all of the success at the feet of one player, even one as great as Rodgers, is just not entirely correct. It's a symbiotic relationship between QB, Blocking, and Receiver and more times than not we're searching for a scape goat assuming that one change is just going to drastically change the production of an offense.

Bortles has been the scapegoat of the Jaguars offensive woes, and although I realize he's a flawed QB... moving on from him this year in a weak QB class is a massive mistake, especially when you consider the cap implications.

As Oar had mentioned, management is part of the problem. To your point, it's not like this offense is stacked with talent and Bortles was just sabotaging it. I've typically been one to point that out as well with my team when people wanted to always bash Bortles. He'd have moments of playing well (particularly end of last year), but the whole offense was pretty much in a groove too. Only time I really saw him carry the team on his back was the Buffalo playoff game last year in the second half. Otherwise, he pretty much has just played to the level of those around him, which this year has kinda stunk.

I don't think it's a massive mistake at all moving on this offseason, regardless of what their grades are on these QB prospects. While I don't think Kessler is good either, I'd almost rather have him due to him actually having decent mechanics. Bortles is going to count against the cap 16M whether he is on the roster or cut, but I do think they can actually save a few million if they release him also.
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SnakeStabler wrote:Just saw that 99 yard run by Henry today. So pathetic by the Jags. Do they don't know how to push someone out of bounds, or tackle someone's legs? Wow, that was really pathetic.


It was like the Jags cloned my Bucs Chris Conte for the game. There were several Conte's on the field trying to tackle a large man by his shoulders and neck.
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NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Jaguars plan to move on from Blake Bortles this offseason.

This feels obvious, but it wasn't a given after a surprise Bortles extension in February. Jacksonville is expected to make Bortles a post June cut — spreading his $16.5 million dead money over the next two years. After leading the Jaguars to the AFC Championship, Bortles hit rock bottom this season, but he should resurface in a backup role. The Jaguars will start over at quarterback.