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hawkdogger wrote:
Killa CAM CAN!! wrote:But dont give us that poor black men stuff :lol: All of a sudden? :lol: if he plead guilty he did something wrong...hes not innocent bro. And to still be with her? Come on man! That puzzy must be good.


He clearly did something wrong.
If you listen to the tape he admits to moving her out of his apartment when she wouldn't leave. That’s not ok.

Did he beat her up? Doubtful. The narrative that he strangled her and punched her in the face and belly is clearly untrue. The evidence photos are just not consistent with that. I’ve seen what it looks like when a man punches a woman. That ain’t it.

Just for perspective, I flipped the evidence photos of Espinal to a lady I know who prosecuted child abuse and domestic violence and sexual assault cases in the adjoining county for thirty years. This old battle ax hates hates hates domestic abusers. Mean old woman. Great lawyer. I asked her for her view on the actual injury photos. She said they’re consistent with possible hands on the throat. But nothing consistent with being hit or manual strangulation.

Clearly something bad went down in 2014.
Which isn’t ok. Can’t lay hands on a woman.

But the narrative is wildly inaccurate. Which of course has zero to do with the nonsense in 2018.

You can draw your own conclusions.
Thanks for "clearing that up for me". :lol:

Again, I am unsure, but that tape was pretty damning for her, IMO. What you have detailed seems much more in line with what I concluded, which is of course still only speculation.
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jamcutpost wrote:Whats funny is that whilst we dismiss rookie WRs in FF (rightly most of the time)

When Andy has gone in for a guy (and no hes not perfect, which coach is. Ask BB about drafting WRs), hes usually been worth owning - even in redrafts

Reid rookie WRs of recent note:

    2008/ Desean Jackson - 1k+ apy
    2009/ Jeremy Maclin - 773/ 4
    2016/ Tyreek Hill - 860 apy & 9

In redrafts ive little to no interest in Hardman this year. In dynasty? Thats a whole different story.

They traded up for Hardman.

They had little capital to do it, so thats more significant than usual. And they werent the only team eyeing him. Jets had a deal arranged with the Eagles in principle to move up for him, before the Chiefs went in.


I was huge into college football at this time, and Action Jackson was by far my number 1 WR that year.
Jeremy Maclin's lowest receiving total was 1055 yards in college.

Hardman's never eclipsed 543 yards.

I see what you're saying here, but Hardman is not in the same zip code as those two as far as receiver prospects (IMO).

Tyreek Hill was a late round dart throw that happened to work out. I'll give them credit for identifying the potential here, but the formula for Tyreek is probably pretty similar to the one that got them to draft Chris Conley in the 3rd round -- athleticism
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zuggyawesome wrote:
jamcutpost wrote:Whats funny is that whilst we dismiss rookie WRs in FF (rightly most of the time)

When Andy has gone in for a guy (and no hes not perfect, which coach is. Ask BB about drafting WRs), hes usually been worth owning - even in redrafts

Reid rookie WRs of recent note:

    2008/ Desean Jackson - 1k+ apy
    2009/ Jeremy Maclin - 773/ 4
    2016/ Tyreek Hill - 860 apy & 9

In redrafts ive little to no interest in Hardman this year. In dynasty? Thats a whole different story.

They traded up for Hardman.

They had little capital to do it, so thats more significant than usual. And they werent the only team eyeing him. Jets had a deal arranged with the Eagles in principle to move up for him, before the Chiefs went in.


I was huge into college football at this time, and Action Jackson was by far my number 1 WR that year.
Jeremy Maclin's lowest receiving total was 1055 yards in college.

Hardman's never eclipsed 543 yards.

I see what you're saying here, but Hardman is not in the same zip code as those two as far as receiver prospects (IMO).

Tyreek Hill was a late round dart throw that happened to work out. I'll give them credit for identifying the potential here, but the formula for Tyreek is probably pretty similar to the one that got them to draft Chris Conley in the 3rd round -- athleticism


I might be mistaken, but wasn't his low draft slot due to the red flags of his past and not his play on the field?
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SJSwarm wrote:
Killa CAM CAN!! wrote:When they were innocent? Thats rare imo...



Dude. Go talk to any non white person who has ever been charged with a crime in Contra Costa County and it won’t take you long to find someone who copped a plea to avoid facing an all white upper class jury.

Not saying that has anything to do with Hill, but your comment is super naive.


Yep.

Happens way too often IMO.

Did it happen to Hill?
I don't know.
But the plea only means he pleaded.
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TheJayCutlers wrote:
I might be mistaken, but wasn't his low draft slot due to the red flags of his past and not his play on the field?


That was certainly part of it, but he was more of an athlete than a receiver coming out of college.

He played one year at Oklahoma St. and had 534 yards rushing, 281 yards receiving and 3 return TDs.
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zuggyawesome wrote:
TheJayCutlers wrote:
I might be mistaken, but wasn't his low draft slot due to the red flags of his past and not his play on the field?


That was certainly part of it, but he was more of an athlete than a receiver coming out of college.

He played one year at Oklahoma St. and had 534 yards rushing, 281 yards receiving and 3 return TDs.



He was real raw.
His rate of progress was amazing.

I can’t expect Hardman to follow that trajectory.
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zuggyawesome wrote:
jamcutpost wrote:Whats funny is that whilst we dismiss rookie WRs in FF (rightly most of the time)

When Andy has gone in for a guy (and no hes not perfect, which coach is. Ask BB about drafting WRs), hes usually been worth owning - even in redrafts

Reid rookie WRs of recent note:

    2008/ Desean Jackson - 1k+ apy
    2009/ Jeremy Maclin - 773/ 4
    2016/ Tyreek Hill - 860 apy & 9

In redrafts ive little to no interest in Hardman this year. In dynasty? Thats a whole different story.

They traded up for Hardman.

They had little capital to do it, so thats more significant than usual. And they werent the only team eyeing him. Jets had a deal arranged with the Eagles in principle to move up for him, before the Chiefs went in.


I was huge into college football at this time, and Action Jackson was by far my number 1 WR that year.
Jeremy Maclin's lowest receiving total was 1055 yards in college.

Hardman's never eclipsed 543 yards.

I see what you're saying here, but Hardman is not in the same zip code as those two as far as receiver prospects (IMO).

Tyreek Hill was a late round dart throw that happened to work out. I'll give them credit for identifying the potential here, but the formula for Tyreek is probably pretty similar to the one that got them to draft Chris Conley in the 3rd round -- athleticism


1) Didnt you try to explain to me about Foster & Alabamas usage of him? This decision to ignore context and circumstance now is strange.

If you watched college now, youd understand who, why and how Hardman did what he did/ didnt in college.

He played ona run first team (Quiz: Name the Georgia RBs drafted in last 10 yrs & which rnds? Any coming next year?) that was akin to LSU (QB skill #1, hand off to RB. QB skill #2, hand off to RB)

WR ydge can be a bit like QB wins.

Id much rather look at his context, catch %age, ypr & yac - and in those? There are no issues. You dont and prefer to look solely at ydge? Up to you, but its a narrow prism thats blacked out on 2 sides.

2) DJax was your #1 prospect that year? Not sure i see the problem in what some call a similarly weak class?

    DJax was drafted 49
    Hardman was drafted 56

Maybe, with the league and the industry onside with it, and in alignment - we're either all in the wrong "zip code" or you might be.

Despite your problem out of context with is usage & ydge, multiple teams tried to trade up for him too.

3) Hill wasnt a "late rnd dart throw that happened to work out". If you dont mind me saying, thats soem terrible revisionism.

He was always a talented guy ... but just so happened he was also a guy that strangled his pregnant girlfriend.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000661084/article/chiefs-giving-tyreek-hill-opportunity-to-atone-for-heinous-crime

That made him undraftable for some teams (Shocking. I know), yet he still went in the 5th.

That doesnt happen if you do what he did and dont have the talent to justify the risk and investment.
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hawkdogger wrote:
SJSwarm wrote:
Killa CAM CAN!! wrote:When they were innocent? Thats rare imo...



Dude. Go talk to any non white person who has ever been charged with a crime in Contra Costa County and it won’t take you long to find someone who copped a plea to avoid facing an all white upper class jury.

Not saying that has anything to do with Hill, but your comment is super naive.


Yep.

Happens way too often IMO.

Did it happen to Hill?
I don't know.
But the plea only means he pleaded.


Ive no doubt some PDs are worse than others.

Ive no doubt there can be racial issues (See Tallahassee for one, right Jameis?) but there isnt a "This doesnt mean much" scenario for then - esp in light of this recent episode.

It was the hospital that called the PD - not Espinal

According to a Stillwater Police Department arrest report, his girlfriend at the time, Crystal Espinal, showed up in an emergency room with cuts and bruises on her face and neck. (The officer who filed the report noted that her lip was busted, that she was wincing with pain and that the mark under her eye was turning purple as she spoke.) Espinal, who was eight weeks pregnant at the time, said Hill had grabbed her neck with his hands, pinned her against the wall and then thrown her to the ground like a “rag doll.” She told an officer that Hill had picked her up by her hair and put her in a headlock. After Espinal had screamed “I can’t breathe” several times, she alleged, he released her, then sat on top of her, punching her in the stomach.


Police found her ripped shirt in the apartment - and the sonogram stuck to the mirror.

Mike Gundy (the Oklahoma St coach) went to see Espinal first, see her injuries first hand before anythign else.

It was then the Big 12 Offensive newcomer of the year, a guy who had - literally - just helped Gundy to a comeback victory over fierce rivals Oklahoma, to the kerb - without any further investigation or encouragement to do so.

The guy who had most to lose and would be more willing to look the other way than most did that. In days. Tookmonths till the trial and the plea.

So i understand that reality > the system. I do.

But a 52 week batterer course ... 3yrs suspended sentence vs copping a plea to a few pts on your licence, or a warning on your record? This wasnt that.
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TheJayCutlers wrote:I might be mistaken, but wasn't his low draft slot due to the red flags of his past and not his play on the field?


Thats exactly what it was.

He was the preseason conference offensive newcomer of the year as a rookie at Ok St. (before being kicked off the team) ... he'd had a 100yd time that wouldve been 6th at the Olympics.

Ppl knew exactly who he was in College - and there was a ton of excitement about it.

Hill's former HC on his PS award wrote:“I’ve been around some special athletes, and Tyreek Hill is as dominant an athlete or football player as I’ve ever been around,” Garden City coach Matt Miller said in the spring. “I think he sky is the limit. I would not be surprised is he’s going to be All-Conference, All-American sooner rather than later. I wouldn’t be surprised if it happens this year.”

Athlon sports wrote:Newcomer of the Year: Tyreek Hill, AP, Oklahoma State

Hill was the No. 3-rated junior college prospect in the nation according to 247Sports and proved he was worth the lofty expectations. He finished second in the Big 12 with 150.9 all-purpose yards per game and made the biggest play of the Pokes season by tying The Bedlam Series with less than a minute away with his unforgettable punt return.


USA Today wrote:STILLWATER, Okla. (AP) — Tyreek Hill entered the season as one of college football's most anticipated players, being voted the Big 12 Conference's preseason newcomer of the year.

While Hill has flashed his elite-level speed on occasion and had a huge impact on No. 16 Oklahoma State's 37-20 victory last weekend over Iowa State with a 97-yard kickoff return for a touchdown, he has not been as productive as expected on offense for the Cowboys (4-1, 2-0 Big 12).

He was dominant against Iowa State on special teams, gaining 194 return yards, including a touchdown on the second half's opening kickoff that made it 20-6 and transformed a close, tense game into an Oklahoma State rout. He also came close to bringing back two punt returns, finishing the day with 221 all-purpose yards.

Hill is second in the Big 12 and 10th in the nation with an average of 161.4 all-purpose yards per game.

"He's getting 200 yards in a game, but he needs to get more on offense," said coach Mike Gundy. "We need to find more ways to get him the ball"


Going JUCO from Garden State he had offers from and visits with: Alabama, Florida St & Texas

Those (Alabama!) are big programs.

Unless you lived in a cave for the 2014 college season you knew ALL about Hill, his recruitment and the excitement.

After Ok St dismissed him, he couldve stayed in Div 1 with Akron. Thats a big step down. But even they ended up pulling their initial offer.

His next HC said "Akron spent months looking into his background", and he's "no idea why they pulled the offer". Akron have never gone the record about it either.

So he ended up in Div 2 and the"mighty" West Alabama ( Gulf Coast Conference) - but even then all 32 NFL teams sent someone to campus.

His HC Gilliland (sp?) said that "Several teams came multiple times" in his final year.

20 went to his pro day.

Trying to make your GF miscarry your own kid by punching her repeatedly in the stomach & choking her (and ending up in Div2 football) can make you drop in the draft, apparently. Who knew.
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I hope you’re right about Hardman.
But from what I’ve seen he needs a lot of work.
His routes are not good. I’d be pleasantly surprised if he decent production aside from special teams this year.
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Well at least we know Jam isn’t hurting for free time.

He just search engined, italicized, and bolded the frig out of you.
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SJSwarm wrote:Well at least we know Jam isn’t hurting for free time.


Enjoying being in a different timezone and on holiday :)

Was as much for your benefit, having brought up that its sometimes easier to plea than anyone elses.
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hawkdogger wrote:I hope you’re right about Hardman.
But from what I’ve seen he needs a lot of work.
His routes are not good. I’d be pleasantly surprised if he decent production aside from special teams this year.


+1

Most rookie receivers now run even less of a complete tree than they ever did.

Even with that caveat, the lack of exp Georgia gave him shows.

For those that dont do CFB to give you some context about the program?

Their leading WR this year only avgd 3 recs per game (Riley Ridley, who went 2 rnds after Hardman)
This is the team that churns out RBs. In the past 8yrs? Isaiah Crowell, Todd Gurley, Nick Chubb, Sony Michel & next yrs borderline 1st rnder D'andre Swift (look him up)

But given his background in an SEC program, and the coaches and players he was around - this isnt the step up it could be for others and wont be out of the blue.

Reid during rookie camp wrote:“Every day, [he] got a little better. These routes are new to him. He did a nice job in the red zone, which normally is the toughest place to work but he did extremely well there. He had a good finish.”

Reid also appreciated the progress Hardman showed when it came to plays in the open field.

We run the dagger routes, 20-yard routes and coming in with speed, and you have to have speed but you also have to have a feel. The first one he ran was brutal—I mean brutal. Then he comes back and you see the second and third one, and every time he did it, it got better, and I’d tell you that with most of the routes that he ran.

“That’s what I’m looking for—those [routes] that they haven’t had to run that all of a sudden now they’re given, and to be able to work within whatever God’s given [them]— the speed and quickness.”

“You got to throw it at him—somewhere he’s got to go, [Hardman’s] extremely smart, so he should be able to handle it.”


The other takeaways (sans vets) i got from the rookie camp?

- he never came off the field, irrespective of package
- they used him in the RZ (hes 5'10?)

Like you id agree about his production this year.

I think he'll see the field, but if we see more than a cpl of touches outside of ST, somethings as likely to have gone wrong, as right.
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jamcutpost wrote:
hawkdogger wrote:I hope you’re right about Hardman.
But from what I’ve seen he needs a lot of work.
His routes are not good. I’d be pleasantly surprised if he decent production aside from special teams this year.


+1

Most rookie receivers now run even less of a complete tree than they ever did.

Even with that caveat, the lack of exp Georgia gave him shows.

For those that dont do CFB to give you some context about the program?

Their leading WR this year only avgd 3 recs per game (Riley Ridley, who went 2 rnds after Hardman)
This is the team that churns out RBs. In the past 8yrs? Isaiah Crowell, Todd Gurley, Nick Chubb, Sony Michel & next yrs borderline 1st rnder D'andre Swift (look him up)

But given his background in an SEC program, and the coaches and players he was around - this isnt the step up it could be for others and wont be out of the blue.

Reid during rookie camp wrote:“Every day, [he] got a little better. These routes are new to him. He did a nice job in the red zone, which normally is the toughest place to work but he did extremely well there. He had a good finish.”

Reid also appreciated the progress Hardman showed when it came to plays in the open field.

We run the dagger routes, 20-yard routes and coming in with speed, and you have to have speed but you also have to have a feel. The first one he ran was brutal—I mean brutal. Then he comes back and you see the second and third one, and every time he did it, it got better, and I’d tell you that with most of the routes that he ran.

“That’s what I’m looking for—those [routes] that they haven’t had to run that all of a sudden now they’re given, and to be able to work within whatever God’s given [them]— the speed and quickness.”

“You got to throw it at him—somewhere he’s got to go, [Hardman’s] extremely smart, so he should be able to handle it.”


The other takeaways (sans vets) i got from the rookie camp?

- he never came off the field, irrespective of package
- they used him in the RZ (hes 5'10?)

Like you id agree about his production this year.

I think he'll see the field, but if we see more than a cpl of touches outside of ST, somethings as likely to have gone wrong, as right.



All true.

I think he has great upside. And the scuttlebutt is that he was their target irrespective of the TYREEK crisis. I would have preferred a decent cornerback.

I’m cautious drinking too much AnDy Reid kool though.
He’s got a masters in coach speak.